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Re:DeepSeek v4 by joe_mamba on Friday April 24, 2026 @08:13AM (#47889158)
>Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera.

Because they have no spine and no leverage/muscle on the international stage to throw their weight around and make sure they get what's best for them at the expense of everyone else the same way US, China, etc do.

They play the international nice guy at the mercy of US tech, energy and defence, and at the mercy of Chinese manufacturing after dismantling their own manufacturing, so they can't do anything radical that upsets either or risk massive repercussions, meaning they get treated as a doormat, constantly being taken advantage of by everyone.

Re:DeepSeek v4 by GistNoesis on Friday April 24, 2026 @08:36AM (#47889362)
European Union construction happened after the second world war in the context of the Marshall Plan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan ) to help rebuild Europe that had been destroyed.

By design European laws are superior to national laws. Leaving the union is also instant bankruptcy because all countries have very high level of debt which are only guaranteed because they are in the union.

European population is getting old and replaced by a migration coming mainly from previous African colonies.

Future paying for the past.

Re:DeepSeek v4 by roenxi on Friday April 24, 2026 @08:53PM (#47897609)
> Leaving the union is also instant bankruptcy because all countries have very high level of debt which are only guaranteed because they are in the union.

That seems to violate basic physics and accounting laws. It isn't possible for everyone to be in debt all at once, because when everything nets out then there isn't anyone to make the loans. Someone has to be producing the goods that get consumed.

Re:DeepSeek v4 by GistNoesis on Saturday April 25, 2026 @09:41AM (#47901508)
That's the magic of interest rates. Countries in the EU, let's say France for example have roughly 115% of GDP of debt. To service the interest of the debt it must finance each year the debt by paying the interests, and borrowing the sum on the market to reimburse the previous debts which are currently reaching their terms. The full owed amount is never paid back, but can be rolled forward indefinitely.

These interests are currently ~2% for France. Which mean the debt is manageable and the interests can be paid with the citizen's tax and the music can continue to play. But once France get out of the UE, interests rates become 5% then the citizens tax are not enough to pay the debt, and nobody wants to lend money to France anymore because even at 5% interests the risk of default becomes too great and they risk not getting the full amount-owed back so nobody lends, and since their is no money in reserve, and they can't borrow it means they default => bankruptcy. France doesn't have its own currency anymore so it cannot print its own money which compounds the problem. National resources get plundered, citizens get poor.

It is a game of musical chair which is highly non-linear.

Re:DeepSeek v4 by ahartmetz on Friday April 24, 2026 @09:23AM (#47889893)
>after dismantling their own manufacturing

Uhm, Europe is not the US. We still have a lot of manufacturing. It varies by country - the UK unfortunately had structural problems, finance supremacy and a Thatcher who hated unions so much that she'd rather destroy unionized industries than have unions. Central Europe still does a pretty large amount of manufacturing.

Re:DeepSeek v4 by joe_mamba on Friday April 24, 2026 @11:14AM (#47891405)
>We still have a lot of manufacturing.

Then why are we afraid of China and the US and cave in to their demands?

Why is german manufacturing output back to where it was in 2006?[1]

[1] https://x.com/ThorstenPolleit/status/2047436171903394294/pho...

Re:DeepSeek v4 by ahartmetz on Friday April 24, 2026 @10:40PM (#47898135)
We still have a lot != it's doing fantastic and is expanding.
Re:DeepSeek v4 by joe_mamba on Saturday April 25, 2026 @12:32PM (#47902656)
So your >"We still have a lot", is just hiding the decline.
Re:DeepSeek v4 by ahartmetz on Saturday April 25, 2026 @07:09PM (#47905521)
I think the "still" implies that it's at least not increasing and probably slowly decreasing. And except in some of the largest companies like Siemens (where it doesn't seem to be a big deal anymore neither), the idea that manufacturing (or anything) may be profitable but not profitable enough has not taken hold as much as in the US.
Re:DeepSeek v4 by joe_mamba on Sunday April 26, 2026 @11:40AM (#47911176)
You're wrong if you're trying to use the US as a negative example and think the EU is better. Yes, the US offshored more than the EU in relative terms, but it has more domestic manufacturing left more than the EU in absolute terms, making the US is the second manufacturer in the world right now, by quite a margin.

Meanwhile Germany's and the EU's short sighted energy policies have caused a lot of manufacturing to move outside the EU to places like the US or China.

The EU is in a very bad position right now manufacturing wise compared to how it was and how it could be. It basically never failed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for the last ~20 years.