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Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by w0utert on Thursday November 08, 2012 @12:04PM (#4758655)
As a dutchman, I have to comment on this:

>> In the Dutch electoral system, this can't happen. Two months before the elections, every political party is expected to submit a detailed budget plan to a non-partisan agency called the Central Plan Bureau (CPB), which plays a role similar to the Congressional Budget Office in America. The CPB produces an analysis of the economic consequences of those budget plans. The effects are assessed in detail for 2013-2017, and there's also a prognosis for 2040 to discourage parties from larding up their budgets with short-term candy that leads to negative long-term consequences.

So, what happens instead, is that all parties write up their budget plan in a way that they expect will yield the most favorable CPB calculations for their intended audience. Contrary to most voters, they realize full well that most of their plans will never be realized, because the Dutch political systems is built around political coalitions, where multiple parties (typically 2, 3 or 4) have to make compromises. Almost inevitably, this means the sharp edges are taken off, and typically it's exactly the sharp edges that influence the CPB calculations the most.

>> The CPB's report came out Monday, and most parties had their strong and weak points. Of the two parties most likely to win the elections, the Liberals did well on deficit-cutting and long-term job creation but hiked income inequality and hurt household purchasing power; the Socialists did well on purchasing power and jobs in the short run but had low employment growth in the long run.

In the mean time, we had our elections, and the resulting coalition comprises the liberal party (VVD) and the socalist party (PvdA). Together, they negotiated their plans for the coming 4 years. And guess what: the net effect of these plans is almost the exact opposite of what the 2 parties have been advertising during election time.

The liberal party agreed to health care reforms that will actually decrease income inequality, and will have a huge impact on upper middle class incomes, up to 10% net income loss. They also agreed to cut tax benefits for home owners, which again mostly hurts upper middle class incomes. In exchange, the socialists agreed on labor market reforms that will cut unemployment benefits, and on housing market reforms that will increase the cost of living for people who rent, usually people with lower incomes.

The last few weeks there has been a raging debate here, because voters on both sides feel cheated. People who voted the liberal party feel particularly cheated, because the current plans hurt them disproportionally, while at the same time they will destroy jobs, reduce consumer spending, and hence are very bad for economic growth. The only rationale for these measurements is redistribution of wealth, which the socialists traded for reducing social security. All iof this goes against everything the liberal party stands for, never ever have the liberals even hinted that they would agree with such measures.

So tl;dr: Even though the unbiased analysis of the plans the different parties have reduces fact-free policies, it's far from a guarantee that after the elections, the winning parties will simply make a 180 degree turn and screw you over anyway.

Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by dkarl on Thursday November 08, 2012 @02:41PM (#4759463)
Even though the unbiased analysis of the plans the different parties have reduces fact-free policies, it's far from a guarantee that after the elections, the winning parties will simply make a 180 degree turn and screw you over anyway.

Be careful what you wish for. There are only two ways for parties to avoid abandoning their campaign promises. One is for a single winning party to have complete control over government policy. The other is for minority parties to prevent the government from implementing any policy at all. In the U.S. we have politicians who promise to derail the government and leave it a smoking ruin rather than allow any part of the other party's platform to be implemented.

Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by danieldk on Thursday November 08, 2012 @01:41PM (#4759168)
Small addition: PvdA (one of the two parties in the new government) is the labor party. The 'socialist party' spoken of in the article is the SP, which still did well in the polls when the article was written, fell out of favor.
Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by w0utert on Thursday November 08, 2012 @04:11PM (#4759857)
You're right, though projecting to US politics, I think you can safely say PvdA is socialist (they call themselves social democrats by the way). SP would be outright communist by US measures ;-)
Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by Luc on Thursday November 08, 2012 @12:29PM (#4758785)
How then, would you have the parties govern the country, if not by compromise? It's unpleasant, but unavoidable.
Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by w0utert on Thursday November 08, 2012 @01:26PM (#4759087)
There's a whole world between making compromises, and doing almost exactly the opposite of what you were promising during election time.

Anyway, my point wasn't that there's something wrong with our political system, or that compromises are bad or something. Just that the fact that it's harder for parties to outright lie about the effects of their intended plans, doesn't automatically make them trustworthy.

Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by Luc on Thursday November 08, 2012 @02:54PM (#4759521)
I see your point. Still, I live in that country to the south of you, so I think you have it pretty good, all things considered :)
Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by jules on Thursday November 08, 2012 @04:03PM (#4759818)
This has nothing to do with being trustworthy. Would you rather that they didn't compromise and as a result have other parties form the government, which leaves them without any influence at all? Both parties made compromises.
Re:Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America by w0utert on Thursday November 08, 2012 @04:27PM (#4759936)
Many people voted for the liberal party because they have always promised to represent the working class, stimulate the economy, create jobs, promote free market principles and basically protect upper middle class wealth. What they did here was the opposite of all of these things. Some compromises are to be expected, but the liberal party literally traded everything for just their austerity plans, which also don't benefit their voters directly. Those people feel cheated, and lost their trust in the liberal party. Recent polls show almost half of them would vote differently today.

Please note I'm not trying to make a point about the politics themselves, just about the different ways politicians can and will deceive voters even when they can't outright make up facts about the effects of their policies. I didn't vote for either of the two winning parties.