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Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @12:47PM (#4706532)
I've had mine since 10AM yesterday; and I'm actually fairly pleased, at least for effectively being a new platform. Thoughts, in no particular order:

- Love the build. Very solid overall.

- 16:9 means it's one long tablet. Oddly, it's actually fairly usable in portrait; can't say the same for my old 16:10 Transformer (maybe just better balanced?)

- The touch cover is, like most say, surprisingly usable. Desperately needs a way to no-op Caps Lock though.

- Screen res lower than iPad, but still usable. Difference not near as noticeable as between iPad 2/3, but too many factors in play to make an objective call there.

- Metro takes getting used to, but I like it (even with KB/trackpad).

- It's the first time I've seen proper desktop Gmail and Google Docs usable in a tablet browser.

- Performance is generally decent. Not blazing, but decent.

- Windows RT appears to still contain far more of Windows than we've been led to believe. Even `csc` is installed, but missing a few dlls.

- No SSH client for Metro yet. That's one of the risks you take on a new platform (esp. a non-Unix one), but still aggravates me.

- Snapping is very, very handy; nice solution to bring proper multitasking to a tablet UI.

- When touch-scrolling over on desktop apps (what few remain), the entire window "bounces" at the head/tail of the content. Odd decision.

- No central notification bin (like Android's shade or iOS's Notification Center). Have to rely on scanning Live Tiles if you miss anything.

- The back camera seems to exist only to make the iPad 2's back camera feel better about itself. Has to be the blockiest camera I've ever seen.

- Handwriting recognition is pretty solid. Wacom junkies will be very pleased when so-equipped tablets ship. (Capacitive styli still suck)

- None of the Twitter apps have really thrilled me. Given the circumstances, I'm not that surprised.

- OS-level share support is a smart move; similar to Android's impl but more thorough (sharing pops up a share pane from your selected app in the sidebar, instead of bouncing you out of your current app entirely).

- Printing is mildly unintuitive; you have to open the "Devices" charm and pick your printer. No one is going to guess that's how to print.

- On the bright side, our network printer/scanner was detected and installed immediately, with zero user intervention. Very, very far cry from the WinXP days.

- There's no way to see your precise battery life outside of the desktop (in the classic sys-tray).

- Presumably due to the use of pressure sensors vs. capacitive, the Touch Cover isn't quite as accurate without a solid surface underneath.

- If you're not using the keyboard (watching movies, etc.), flip the cover backwards with the kickstand out and it's nearly as stable as a laptop.

- The intro tells you about the basic edge swipes (right for charms, left for app switcher, top/bottom for menu); not mentioned is swiping straight from top-center to bottom kills the current app.

- Screenshot is Win+VolDown.

- Wordament can be played while snapped. This is dangerous.

- IE lets you swipe on the outer edge of the page for back/forward, which would be smart if this didn't occasionally clash with the app switcher.

Questions?

(PS: I typed this entire post on the Touch Cover.)

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by cgcardona on Saturday October 27, 2012 @01:56PM (#4706731)
Nice review. I've spent the last 6 weeks working on a Windows 8 app. I've been using a dell box and samsung tablet with visual studio and a wired mouse/wireless keyboard so I can speak first hand about what it's like to use the 'desktop' part of Windows 8 for serious work.

Disclaimer: I've been a web developer for 4 years and have used a Mac during that whole time. Before that the only experience I had with windows was a typing class in high school and casually using it at people's houses. I don't have a bunch of Windows experience. This was the first native windows app that I've ever created. Also I've been using a full blown copy of WIndows 8 which is different than WinRT. Any of the mentions of 'desktop' software below won't run on a WinRT device.

Truthfully I'm not entirely sold on the idea of having a full blown computer in a tablet. Sure if was convenient for me to travel with the tablet and then when I got to a desk just plug in a mouse and attach a wireless keyboard but something still seemed incorrect.

More than once I was showing a workmate some code and absentmindedly touched the screen which highlighted the code and rearranged the order or cut it to the clipboard. Granted I'll develop the muscle memory to deal with that issue over time but I thought it worth noting that my initial reaction to having a 'full' computer on a tablet was negative.

Though I agree with you 100% that there is more "Windows" in here than we've been led to believe. In fact I found that only when launching apps did I interact with the metro start screen. Other than that I could just alt+tab right past it. All of the apps that I was using (sans the app that I was actually developing) were 'desktop' apps: Internet Explorer 10, File Explorer, Visual Studio 2012, cigwin and Tortoise SVN.

FWIW I like the traditional desktop version of IE10 much better than the new metro version of IE10. Which version of IE10 do you prefer? Have you done any app development?

The app that we created was built on the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript stack.Just like a webapp you build the UI in HTML/CSS and wire it together with javascript. There's a suite of UI elements in the WinJS.UI namespace that you can quickly build the UI with. You can also access the hardware and the Windows Runtime from javascript APIs.

The development experience was a real eye opener. The high level take away is that all the talk over the past 5 years about HTML5 eventually being used to create applications that could rival their native counterparts is finally coming to fruition.

You can build a Windows 8 app in either the native or the web stack and they will have nearly 100% feature parity. I've been considering making the switch from being a web developer to being a native app developer recently because I've been feeling limited by the browser. I've just wanted to get deeper access to the hardware and the OS and windows 8 fulfils that need.

Unfortunately they completely mangle the DOM and inject insane amounts of useless markup and attribute/values which make the semantic web geek inside of you die a little each time the app compiles and runs.

A small example--in my code I had a button that was a child of a div. It was literally two lines of HTML. After the app 'built' I couldn't get an event listener that was listening for an event on the child button to fire.

I used the DOM inspector to check out what was happening and not only had the compiler injected about 20 lines of html around each of my elements complete with dozens of data-foo attributes—it didn't even maintain the parent/child relationship from my markup! You can imagine how disconcerting it is to doubt that the core relationships of your markup aren't going to be maintained.

If you have time check out the app I helped created-Trulia for Windows 8: http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-US/app/trulia-real-estat...

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @02:03PM (#4706752)
I actually prefer the Metro IE; simply because I'm using this more from the tablet angle than a desktop. My primary machine is a 13" MBA; I've got Win8 running in a VM there and I essentially see it as Win7 with a faster Start Search. I'm in the process of developing a small hobby app right now; but in C#/XAML (out of familiarity more than anything else). I've done WP7 development once and it was frankly amazing to work with, definitely compared to the Android stack. So far, my experience with WinRT is pretty close.

PS: app is pretty sharp!

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by cgcardona on Saturday October 27, 2012 @02:13PM (#4706788)
Thank you!

:-]

If you have a Trulia account and use any of our other apps (www.trulia.com, m.trulia.com, or any of our iOS/Android phone/tablet apps http://www.trulia.com/mobile/) and save a search or a property that data will get synced to the Windows 8 app and will show up on the main page (what we call 'the hub').

You can create an account from within the Windows 8 app from the charms bar.

Also to change your location go to the map view by tapping on a map tile from the hub.

Once on the map view swipe from the bottom to reveal the app bars. In the bottom app bar you'll see a tap target for search filter.

Once you filter your search and are on a new location swipe again from the bottom and tap 'Near Foo' from the app bar at the top.

This will take you back to the hub populated with your new location and nearby cities.

Search filtering from the hub is coming soon but we didn't have time to get it in the first release.

Thanks again!

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @03:36PM (#4706999)
I will say HTML apps don't give themselves on Win8 near as easily as on other platforms (with the exception of Cut the Rope). It's pretty obvious when you've been dumped into a webview on iOS or Android; HTML apps in Win8 do feel different from their XAML counterparts, but it's subtle enough where I can't put it into words (and average users will likely never notice at all).
Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by sliverstorm on Saturday October 27, 2012 @06:43PM (#4707470)
More than once I was showing a workmate some code and absentmindedly touched the screen which highlighted the code and rearranged the order or cut it to the clipboard.

Why would you touch the screen when pointing? Non-touchscreen monitors generally shouldn't have your fingers all over them, so at least for me I've developed the habit of never touching the monitor when pointing.

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by alexsb92 on Saturday October 27, 2012 @01:40PM (#4706687)
Regarding the Twitter clients, I tried Tweetro on my Windows 8. Haven't gotten to use it too much, but it seems kinda cool. Especially the link preview. I'm wondering if you tried it, what's your opinion on it?

As an aside this brings me to one of my problems with Windows 8. When I was in Desktop mode and I first discovered the Side Bar (forgot what it's called) and saw the Share Button, I knew from before that you can use that to update twitter and facebook for example, so i got really excited thinking I had this quick easy way to update twitter and facebook without having to open up the browser. Turns out I was incredibly wrong. When you do click Share, it says "Nothing can be shared form the desktop". Then what is the point of keeping that button in the bar when in the Desktop context? Initially I even thought it was because I had to have a Twitter app open in Metro, but that had no effect.

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @01:46PM (#4706702)
Tweetro is one of the better ones, but it has an aggravating habit of failing to tweet for no apparent reason, on a fairly regular basis.

Not related to the share charm, but you can snap Tweetro from the app switcher to the side like so[0]

[0] https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x8pothn1h3qf1i/Screenshot%20%288%...

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by alexsb92 on Saturday October 27, 2012 @01:56PM (#4706730)
I'll admit I haven't used it as much, but I was quite impressed by the looks of it. Yes the snap solves the problem, however you can still only share to that snapped app. Maybe we'll see a change in the behaviour of the Share charm in a future update.

Another problem I've had with the Mail app (though this is Windows 8, so not sure if it's in RT as well) is that you can't just use the Mail/Calendar apps like how you'd use them on an iOS device, where you can just add your gmail as an accunt and then you have your calendars and email. I'd love to be proven wrong, and for there to exist a way to do this though, without having to create another Microsoft account. And I saw another, as I've used my recently revived hotmail to log into the Store and all.

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by mide765 on Saturday October 27, 2012 @01:33PM (#4706664)
Are the speakers really that bad as the reviews say?

I've read that the covers can be on the back of the tablet, while holding it like a magazine. Are the input keys disabled if you do that?

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @01:41PM (#4706688)
No better or worse than most other tablets, I've found.

Yes, keys are disabled when the cover's folded back. I haven't done any scientific testing on a threshold, but the on-screen keyboard will pop in/out as you flip the cover in and out of position. It also engages the rotate lock when the keyboard is out, for obvious reasons.

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by facorreia on Saturday October 27, 2012 @05:50PM (#4707349)
I'm curious about the Surface, I'd appreciate if you can report your experience on some use cases:

* Can you comfortably hold it with one hand (e.g. for reading a book)? * Can you comfortably hold it with one hand and type onscreen with the other? * Can you comfortably type onscreen while holding it with both hands? * Can you use the Touch Cover and/or Type Cover with the device on your lap (as if you were sitting in an airport, doctor's office, etc.) as you would do with a laptop?

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @07:18PM (#4707551)
If you've used an iPad 3; it feels close to that weight but it's a wider aspect ratio. Can hold it in one hand but not for long; just fine for two-hand use. You can use the cover just fine in your lap, but will probably have better luck with the Type Cover in that scenario.
Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by facorreia on Saturday October 27, 2012 @09:18PM (#4707808)
Thank you. After watching the original conference at which Surface was announced, I realized it was a game changer for the Microsoft ecosystem and it seemed like a great piece of hardware. The potential to replace 2 devices with one seemed very attractive to me.

But after seeing some reviews, it seems this hybrid doesn't function very well as a tablet and neither as a laptop. I'll still have to see someone using it on the lap to understand how the screen is able to stand. Granted it's an edge case but when I'm at airports I tend to do that.

Anyway, you reply just made me more curious to try one.

Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by mark-r on Sunday October 28, 2012 @11:09PM (#4710915)
A modern keyboard re-imagining should ditch the caps lock entirely. When's the last time you found it useful?
Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by nazgulnarsil on Saturday October 27, 2012 @06:58PM (#4707503)
what are you referencing with the "snapping" comment?
Re:Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT by ConstantineXVI on Saturday October 27, 2012 @07:11PM (#4707534)
You can drag an app out of the app switcher and run it on the edge of the screen alongside your current app.