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Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jbstack on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:10AM (#46219480)
I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things.

There are some (big) downsides though. Properties are very small and very expensive compared to other European countries, so you can't expect a high standard of living in this aspect unless you have plenty of money. Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future.

If it wasn't for these last two points I'd almost definitely move there.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by lm28469 on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:19AM (#46219622)
> lists all of the reasons why countries with taxes are nice to live in

> concludes by: "it would be perfect if not for taxes"

People wouldn't be as friendly and well educated if they went bankrupt when losing their jobs, getting a cancer, had to take $100k loans for uni, &c. the towns wouldn't be nice and clean if people didn't pay taxes for regular cleaning, ...

There are very very few countries with low taxes and nice quality of life for the average Joe, and the exceptions usually don't want you to move in. Try Albania or Bulgaria, you'll quickly understand why most people are mostly happy about paying taxes

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by ramblerman on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:31AM (#46219806)
Sorry but as a southern Neighbor you are painting a picture of Europe 20 years ago.

Taxes these days keep up the ponzi scheme of european pensions and an influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work.

There is a a lot of budget between ur citizens not going bankrupt when they get sick and taking 50% of their salary.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by lm28469 on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:38AM (#46219894)
Sure, but the parts you still enjoy wouldn't even exist otherwise. Even the crumbling western european healthcare system is miles ahead of the american one for the average citizen.

It's always been a ponzi scheme, even 20 years ago when you enjoyed it and thought everything was perfect.

> low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work.

Including all the FIRE people and tech migrants who come to take freebies while not chipping in

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by ethbr1 on Thursday December 11, 2025 @07:33AM (#46230598)
> influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work

Aka a low wage labor pool to plug the youth demographic gap.

If European countries had sustainable fertility rate, then they could be choosy about immigration.

At 1.3-1.5, well, people have to come from somewhere...

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by tonfreed on Thursday December 11, 2025 @03:11PM (#46236483)
Real mask off comment here, respect
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by ethbr1 on Thursday December 11, 2025 @07:56PM (#46239614)
Folks spend so much time talking about second+ order effects of immigration, but it's the economy that's primarily important.

I don't know too many nativists / nationalists who agree with the statement 'I am fine with my country being poorer and worse off economically in exchange for getting rid of immigrants.'

Their political champions bill is as though removing immigrant labor will somehow make the economy better.

Because, yes, when has a smaller, more expensive domestic labor pool ever helped a country's economic competitiveness? /s

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jbstack on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @01:07PM (#46221155)
I guess my complaint was more about the type of taxes rather than the concept of taxes in general. Income tax I can accept: it's the price of entry to live in the place and enjoy its benefits. Even then there's plenty of room for debate between the extremes of "ultra-low / no tax" and "very high", but let's set that aside for now.

But having a wealth tax with a very low threshold is something else entirely. It means that I'm not free to invest and grow the money that is already mine, that I already paid taxes on in the first place. It means I'll always be held back and prevented from advancing as much as I could. It means that improving your situation so that next year you're doing a little better than this year, is something that the system actively pushes you away from.

There are also practical problems with taxing wealth. Income tax is "easy": by definition you have the money to pay for it because it's charged on money that you've received. With a wealth tax, you might not have the money. For example, if you own an investment apartment or some other illiquid asset you can't just sell a piece of it every year to pay the tax. You'll either have to find the money out of income (assuming you have enough) or ruin your investment strategy by selling the whole thing when you didn't plan to.

It also distorts the risk/reward tradeoff: many investments might not make sense at all if you're suddenly paying 2% a year of the value.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by ponector on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @02:49PM (#46222720)
2% is comparable to the property tax in USA.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by ethbr1 on Thursday December 11, 2025 @07:27AM (#46230547)
> There are also practical problems with taxing wealth. [...] With a wealth tax, you might not have the money. For example, if you own an investment apartment or some other illiquid asset you can't just sell a piece of it every year to pay the tax.

This is a strawman trotted out against wealth taxes.

Stated another way: no, people shouldn't be able to put their wealth into an arbitrary form to make it untaxable.

After that, it's standard planning. Owe an unexpected amount of tax on a high performing asset you don't want to liquidate? Take a loan with it/gains as collateral. (The same as people do now!)

The bigger issue is valuation of illiquid assets. I.e. how to properly tax someone benefiting from opaque trusts or with shares of non-public assets (which they might be inclined to hide the profitability of).

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jbstack on Thursday December 11, 2025 @11:40AM (#46233631)
"Take a loan with it" - that's not a practical solution if the asset is property. Getting a mortgage approved is far from straightforward, can take months, is by no means guaranteed to be accepted, and can be extremely expensive if done frequently (e.g. yearly) due to one-off costs and lock-in periods.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by ethbr1 on Thursday December 11, 2025 @07:59PM (#46239624)
I'm not sure what country you live in, but in the US at least, mortgages (and their property-collateral loan relatives) are incredibly easy to get, relatively cheap, and come in a (perhaps overly so) incredible range of flavors.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jermaustin1 on Thursday December 11, 2025 @11:53AM (#46233810)
If my math is correct, and it almost certainly isn't, if you had 100kEUR in savings, you would be taxed on "fictitious" returns on 42k. The fictitious rate of return they use is 1.44%, which brings your fictitious returns to 600EUR. You then owe income taxes on that return, which is 200EUR.

So your wealth tax on 100k is 0.2% or so...

Again, my math might have missed a zero somewhere.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by wing-_-nuts on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:14AM (#46219548)
>Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future.

This was a deal breaker for me as someone on the FIRE path. It's neighbor, Belgium, is much better in this respect.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by lm28469 on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:27AM (#46219745)
FIRE people are funny, I wouldn't retire in belgium even if I was paid for it personally. Do you just order by tax rate and move wherever the number is the smallest ? I never heard of anyone moving to Belgium for anything other than family or cross border workers
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jadyoyster on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:58AM (#46220183)
Because Belgium didn't have capital gains tax it was actually common to (fake) retire to Belgium for wealthy individuals. There's supposed to be a capital gains tax from 2026 though.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by esseph on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @12:21PM (#46220508)
Belgium is one of the top 20 countries in the world for quality of life and social safety net.

There are ~200 countries doing worse.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by lm28469 on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @12:40PM (#46220776)
Quality of life for integrated citizens or for FIRE leeches ? The truth from quality of life polls can be far from the truth of migrants on the ground. If you're leaving CA for Belgium to save money and enjoy a nice "quality of life" you're in for a treat lol. People aren't interchangeable units of meat that can be integrated and fully acclimated to new cultures/nations.

I could understand Amsterdam/Berlin for the vibe and the fact that everyone speaks english. Portugal/Spain/Greece/Italy for the weather, the nordic countries for nature and the overall lifestyle... but Belgium, really ? no offence but it's like Luxembourg, if it wasn't for tax reasons nobody would ever willingly move there

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by q3k on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @12:29PM (#46220626)
Maybe... but you're still in Belgium. :)
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by neilv on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:16AM (#46219587)
> This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future.

What if you plan to stay permanently? Does that change your priority for accumulating more personal wealth?

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jbstack on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @01:13PM (#46221238)
I don't follow why it makes a difference? If someone wants to invest to improve their future quality of life, why would it matter how long they will live in a place for?
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by neilv on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @01:48PM (#46221763)
I was asking because, in country A, if you don't have a lot of money for retirement, you might soon be out on the street, or otherwise soon dead; but in country B, things might be more affordable, and have more social safety net, support, and sharing.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jonkoops on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @11:17AM (#46219597)
The new limit before being taxed is around 60K (€59.357), any amount on top of that is taxed (1.44%), so it is not like you are getting robbed blind. It is only fair that those that have a lot of money contribute so that others can participate in society with equal opportunity. Also, not all assets are taxed.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jbstack on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @01:12PM (#46221223)
It's actually more like 2.2% for shares (5.88% assumed return taxed at 36% = 2.2%.

If you have an ultra-low risk investment strategy focused on value preservation and inflation beating (where your expected returns are in the low single digits e.g. 2 - 3%), that does start to look like being robbed blind.

> It is only fair that those that have a lot of money contribute

Really? 60k is "a lot of money"? Yes, it's a lot in the sense that many people have far less than that, but it's not "a lot" in the scheme of things when we're talking about saving and investing.

With 60k you'll be lucky even to get the down-payment on a mortgage for a small apartment, which you'll then be paying off every month for the next several decades. Should we be taxing people on their wealth before they've even had the chance to own their first home? I would argue that such a person can't legitimately be called wealthy.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by jonkoops on Thursday December 11, 2025 @07:19AM (#46230466)
Getting a mortgage in the Netherlands doesn't require a down-payment. And yes, we should be taxing wealth. Again, the taxation only applies on any amount above 60K, so if you have 61K you pay 1.44% over €1000 (approx. €14).
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by GaryNumanVevo on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @02:22PM (#46222289)
As a US Expat who just purchased a home in Amsterdam it's a hell of a lot better than paying $1.5 mil for a shack in Sunnyvale. We bought the apartment we were living in from our landlord (funny enough because they're going to start charging him extra tax for N+2 rental properties). It's worth it.

For one, they ruled that the wealth tax is against the EU human rights agenda. So they're scrambling to come up with a solution. Even with this tax, the projected weight isn't terrible. For reference my wife and I are CoastFIRE here with ~2mil USD in NW and the tax is marginal compared to our returns.

Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by tuesdaynight on Thursday December 11, 2025 @08:18AM (#46231004)
Aren't you immigrants? I thought expats were temporarily immigrants, but you don't sound as planning to go back to the USA.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by GaryNumanVevo on Friday December 12, 2025 @08:33AM (#46243967)
Immigrant yes, although a lot of my American expat friends have been here 5+ years and don't plan to go back any time soon.
Re:Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands by giardini on Wednesday December 10, 2025 @04:59PM (#46224482)
>"I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things."<

Yes, and about half the Netherlands is below sea level, something I cannot abide.