Maybe.
>a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd
Correct.
>taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd
We arent talking about productivity gains.
>for me to reconsider my comment you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward
"Doping up" is intentionally emotive language and a misrepresentation.
>to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction
You dont even clearly state your complaint. Its about patient outcomes, not "society" but you are implying they are also a social good. Great.
The best path forward is to reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. These drugs, reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. People with these illnesses, have a better life due to the medication. Why that upsets you is a deeply internal problem to you, not a problem with society or medicine.
Well it would be a net social good. But I expect I will see a different account with vastly the same posting style back here next time ADHD comes up, spewing the same nonsense.
I am not responding further for your sake, but for the sake of those who read this thread.
> taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd.
Speed (methamphetamine) has the same relationship to Adderall (dextroamphetamines) as methanol does to ethanol; a difference in methyl group.
Ethanol (aka alcohol) is commonly used for recreational purposes.
If you think Adderall is the same thing as "speed", I hope you wouldn't mind drinking a glass of methanol to prove the point that chemically similar substances have similar effects.
> modern western society exhibits a plethora of conditions that are likely to result in the manifestation of adhd behaviours in non adhd individuals
Which is why the diagnostic criteria for ADHD require a lifelong manifestation of ADHD symptoms.
Notice how you say behaviors, not symptoms or traits, i.e. how people act, and not how they feel, which difficulties they face, what cost they bear, and so on.
The behavior of an ADHD individual might be no different from one without ADHD. We can be on time, for example.
It is just immensely more difficult for us, just like it's difficult for someone with a broken leg that didn't quite heal to walk.
And yes, anyone can bump their toe on a table leg and experience pain for a while. That doesn't mean that people with broken legs don't exist.
>a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd.
It isn't, because we have cheaper and more reliable ways.
The difference is there though.
> you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward - to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction.
Believing that "doping up the populace" is what's taking place is a delusion that I can't address in the same way that I can't address the belief that the Loch Ness monster caused the 2019 Coronavirus pandemic.
Unfortunately, your worldview seem to be as strongly detached from reality as you are convinced about the veracity of your unshakable beliefs.
But again, if you sincerely believe people taking Adderall are taking speed, you really could save a lot on booze by drinking methanol instead.
Do let us know how that goes.
Oh my. I was going to ask if you've drank a glass of methanol to argue that Adderall and speed the same thing, as I suggested... but judging my the content of your comments, you might have had more than one already.
ADHD behavior is normal human behavior, because we're all human.
And indeed, some quite reasonable accommodations and changes in the way the society functions and forms expectations of ourselves and others would go a long way towards making ADHD folks living fulfilling lives without pain.
All that said, executive dysfunction is still a thing, and ADHD folks routinely find themselves struggling with their own goals and lives, apart from the society and its expectations.
Technology can and does help a lot (electric kettles that turn themselves off, washer-dryer combo machines that don't require remembering to take clothes out, etc).
But then there are still things that I struggle with on my own, like wanting to send postcards to friends and taking literal years to get to it.
I really can't blame it on the society.
That's where the meds can make a big difference in one's life.
In some ways, ADHD is an advantage. We fare better than others in emergencies. Hyperfocus is an asset. Having a million hobbies is a plus.
But in other ways, it's something that makes us need support.
The meds are one of the ways the society accommodates us and gives us that support.
The only thing that changed is the environment. The person is fine.
So all this "winter clothing" scam exists only to enrich clothes makers.
The world simply should be warm everywhere, then none of that stuff would be necessary.
Winter clothes aren't a solution to feeling cold, because they don't address the root problem of Finland being on the map.
People simply shouldn't be subjected to such conditions.
...see how you sound like?
======
>societal amphetamines are about as supportive as me handing you a set of crutches after i broke your legs
Well, the common ground here is that the crutches would indeed be helpful in this scenario.
>if you took an adhd cunt and threw him in the bush he would be fine
I get your point, but nobody would be fine like that. People are social animals.
Sure, the society sucks. But we literally can't live without it.
And while we're fixing it, well, we better have the meds.
> eg. maybe if we didn't get forced into a 9-5 schedule and instead had a bit more freedom , people would be more happy to devote energy to their work ...
100%.
> "here, take this speed and wreck your heart so that you fit better into the box we designed for you"
Counterpoint: stimulants are still useful and helpful even when you take the society away.
I can be living on my own and on my own terms, and still be upset that it took me literally 11 (eleven) years to mail a gift to a friend [1].
Sure, there could be ways mailing a package could be easier. But I really can't blame the 11 year delay on society trying to fit me in a box.
>the only way forward is to through honest questioning as to why adhd diagnoses are thousands of times greater in the west,
Citation needed. But availability and quality of mental healthcare is one big factor here in any cases.
Saying this as some born in the USSR.
My mother got an ADHD diagnosis in her 50s, long after moving to the US.
It's not like she didn't struggle with ADHD in the USSR, it just wasn't an option to get an ADHD diagnosis there.
[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Eleven%20Years%20To%20Mail%20A%...
What specifically are you talking about here? It appears to me that your comment is an expression of vibe with zero information content.
There's no dichotomy between treating symptoms and cause even when the cause is treatable (which isn't the case with ADHD; it's a neurotype, with differences showing on brain scan levels) — and that's setting aside the discussion of whether it's something we need to "treat" in the first place.
We still have painkillers for people who need them while they are getting treatment.
We still have meds for runny noses, we still have Tylenol for fever, even though these are merely symptoms.
We still have pills for allergies.
And on that note: the symptoms (such as fever and allergic reactions) can and do kill people.
Please reconsider your comment.