Being forced into a never ending apartheid situation may also be the reason. Give them voting rights or give them a state, it's pretty simple.

> Being forced into a never ending apartheid situation may also be the reason.

An occupation is not apartheid.

> Give them voting rights

Israel tried that...Palestinians straight up voted for Hamas terrorists[0] who promptly eliminated voting rights(although based on opinion polling Hamas would likely be elected again).

> give them a state

Israel tried moving towards that in Gaza[1], it backfired spectacularly leading to the current conflict.

Any other ideas on how to move towards peaceful coexistence? I think the first step is some sort of de-radicalization program, but not sure how one would implement that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the...

Israel has said: The Palestinians will never have a state. They have also said - the Palestinians will never vote in Israel. Is this not apartheid?

> Is this not apartheid?

Apartheid by definition means race based discrimination, which is different from citizenship based discrimination(which basically all countries have to various degrees).

Anyone in the world who has one race can freely move there. People of other races cannot. Rights are awarded based on race. Nothing to do with citizenship.

Apartheid.

> Anyone in the world who has one race can freely move there. People of other races cannot. Rights are awarded based on race. Nothing to do with citizenship.

You're obviously referring to a Israeli citizenship law[0] here. Your claim that it has nothing to do with citizenship makes no sense.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Since the 1990s Israel has been trying to give them a state, to varying degrees. They got civil and security autonomy in Areas A of the West Bank, for example. And Israel pulled her citizens out of the Gaza strip in 2005.

The problem is that the PA, who rules the West Bank are extremely corrupt, and Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction. Neither side has been actually performing all the functions of state, UNRWA has been doing that.

The PM of Israel has stated: The Palestinians will NEVER have a state.

What part of that statement did I misunderstand? Israel's stated policy is this: No State for the Palestinians, no Civil Rights. This is clear.

The leaders of Hamas have stated the the Jewish state is to destroyed and the Jewish residents exterminated.

The PA leaders have stated that the German genocide of Jews never occurred.

And Egyptian, Jordanian, Palestinian, Libyan, and Iraqi leaders have all stated the the idea of a Palestinian People was invented in the 1960s. No joke.

If you want to start pulling out quotes to judge merit in the Middle East, there's enough material to hang anybody.

The leaders of Israel have not just spoken about it, they have actually destroyed the Palestinian State in the last few months. They have killed tens of thousands of kids.

Should they be deradicalised?

Hamas is killing children. Trying to pin the blame on Israel just kills more children.

Hamas literally burned the babies of two women I know. 1/3 of their rockets fall back into the densely populated Gaza strip. They have children guard armed rocket launchers, I have a video of one such rocket failing and killing the child "guards" from about a decade ago (that's when I first really started taking an interest in the subject). Hamas builds tunnels to store (and then murder) hostages from children's bedrooms. Hamas plants IEDs in structures throughout the strip, when they blow up children instead of IDF soldiers they publish the videos of the children being blown up. Hamas prevents civilians from evacuating apartment buildings-turned-weapon-depots, when the IDF gives warning to evacuate. Hamas steals humanitarian aid.

You really need to decide if your goal is to slander Israel, or save children. If your goal really is to save children, I implore you to research exactly the things I've mentioned.

Israel killed 50 people yesterday. Every single day, they have killed between 50 and 100 Palestinians for TWO YEARS.

This is not a war, it's a massacre. Nobody is shooting back, Israel is just killing people trapped in the Gaza strip.

All this just so that the apartheid can continue without the Palestinians rebelling.

  > Nobody is shooting back.

Then from where came the rockets that were shot at Ashdod, Barnea, Nitzan, Kfar Aza, Miflasim, Saad, and Nir Am come from? This was during Yom Kippor, the Jew's holiest day.

You are invited to check that those rockets were fired from the Gaza strip. I know, I live walking distance from the strip. And you should then realize that the sources who tell you that Hamas is not shooting at Israel are using the tactic of Lies of Omission to influence your opinion.

Ooh now try and name all the Palestinian children that have been murdered by Israel!

I won't dispute that 50 people were killed yesterday, I have no idea, and I don't know how many of them were killed by Hamas and how many of them were killed by Israel. The Arab media reports all of them as being martyrs because that is their culture. The Western media just translates with the Arab media says. I do know that yesterday, Yom Kippur or the Jew's holiest day of the year, Hamas shot barrages of rockets at Israeli cities and towns. I don't know how many of those rockets fell back into the Gaza strip, typically a third of them do. So go figure how many of the 50 Gazans were killed by Hamas own rockets. In any case, when the Gazans decide that they've suffered too much then they are invited and welcomed to return the hostages. The war will be over that minute.

It is very telling that the side which has the ability to end the suffering now, by returning the hostages, chooses not to do that.

So the photos of flattened buildings are all "hamas"? You came in, blew up everything, and now you are saying "they did it to themselves, that wasn't us". Their dead kids - oh they did that? The occupation? Oh, that's their fault! If only they would start being nice, so we can stop killing them and give them a city! Ah let me build a settlement in their land - but it's THEIR fault!

You give me a lot of material to address.

  > So the photos of flattened buildings are all "hamas"?

No, if buildings are flattened then that's not Hamas. Israel uses HE explosive, Hamas uses FA. HE is the one that levels buildings, FA is the one that leaves burn marks. Just like we saw at the AlAhli hospital where 500 people were killed - burn marks. Flattened buildings are Israeli munitions.

  > Their dead kids - oh they did that? The occupation? Oh, that's their fault!

Often, yes. This is not disputed among Gazans. By their culture, no matter which side had the hand in killing you, you are a martyr and afforded the rewards of heaven.

I suggest you go open the guys and Telegram channels. There's a photograph being shared right now of half a dozen Gazans that were killed by other Gazan's hands. All piled up on a blanket.

  > The occupation? Oh, that's their fault!

There's no dispute that the beginning of the occupation is squarely on the Arabs, the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank lasted 19 years. That said, both sides are responsible for it having been dragged out for an additional 60 years. Various Israeli governments have had different levels of intentions of giving or not giving the Palestinians certain autonomies and land. But no matter what the intentions of any specific Israeli government, the Palestinians have rejected every single offer. At some point one has to be content with what they've gotten, and realize that they can't destroy the other side completely and those people need some place to live. We, the jews, watched the British give over three quarters of the land of Palestine to the Hashemite kingdom, and left us less than 25%. And we were content with that. Then the UN came in and gave half of that to an Arab state and half of that to a Jewish state. And we were content with that. But then seven Arab nations invaded us to slaughter us. The Jews were ethically cleansed during that war from the West Bank and other places. Just as the Jews were content with what we were offered when we were weak, so should one reasonably expect the Arabs to be content and realize that we're not going anywhere and we need a safe place to live as well.

  > If only they would start being nice, so we can stop killing them and give them a city!

Yes, generally in Western culture it is expected that when you want something from somebody, you treat them nicely. Especially if what you want is to live next door to them.

  > Ah let me build a settlement in their land

Their land? Are you pulling the Arab Land card? How would you respond to British who reject Arab immigration to Great Britain on the basis of GB being White Land? The Jews have 3000 continuous years of history in the West Bank, broken only for 19 years when Jordan ethnically cleansed the West Bank of Jews. Even Israel didn't ethnically cleanse the land she won, Israel was (and remains) 20% Arab. If you support ideas of one-race-only Land and ethnic cleansing, then you and I will never agree.

Then give the inhabitants of the land citizenship and the right to vote! It's simple. Stop the apartheid, give people civil rights.

Either you know what the consequence of that would be, and you therefore seek to destroy the Jewish state. Or you do not know what the consequence of that would be, and you therefore should not be talking about a subject that you know little about.

Israel is currently providing the strongest known case for secular administration of the Levant.

Are you agreeing that Israel has by far the most secular government in the Levant?

Zionism(especially early parts of the movement) has deeply secular roots.

On that point you and I agree completely.

However, there are no groups vying for government in the Levant which are secular in nature other than the Jewish leftist groups. And none of the other groups have a culture compatible with those Jewish leftist values.

> Then give the inhabitants of the land citizenship and the right to vote! It's simple.

Effectively saying Israel should have over control of their government to a majority voting block that will likely elect terrorists again just isn't something that's ever going to happen. There's a reason the international community largely regards a one-state solution as entirely non-viable.

> It is very telling that the side which has the ability to end the suffering now, by returning the hostages, chooses not to do that.

Palestinian suffering at the hand of Israel did not start on October 10th, so this is an obvious lie which no Palestinian can believe.

What I can't unsee is your argument depends on Palestinians having no agency. And thus blameless.

As soon as one assumes they do then ones sympathy is very limited indeed. Bookends for me are Munich and finally 10/7. And I'm just done with that group of people. They'd be way better off if everyone abandoned them.

> And I'm just done with that group of people.

You can pack your bags and leave. Passionate bigotry didn't save anyone at the Nuremberg trials last I checked.

> Hamas is killing children. Trying to pin the blame on Israel just kills more children.

Young Jewish Israeli soldiers are killing uninvolved, unarmed, defenseless babies, children, women and men, in cold blood, daily.

They face no consequences for their actions. Zero consequences.

Trying to deny this fact, to equivocate, to shift the blame -- to my mind, that is explicit support of genocide.

Discussing this topic with you is impossible because you have committed to spreading Israeli state propaganda regardless of what the actual facts of the situation are. If you are unmoved by the children being savagely blown apart by Israeli rockets because you equate that with some Arab states bad-mouthing Israel then I fear nothing will ever convince you that Palestinians are human. Have a good day and if you have kids, give them a hug and be glad they don't live in Gaza.

  > Discussing this topic with you is impossible because you have committed to spreading Israeli state propaganda regardless of what the actual facts of the situation are.

If I have stated something infactual, point it out. I can back up every fact that I've stated.

  > If you are unmoved by the children being savagely blown apart by Israeli rockets because you equate that with some Arab states bad-mouthing Israel

You are correct that I don't use emotional strategy in my arguments, nor am I swayed by emotional arguments. I stick to facts. And if you did too, you would recognize that one third of the Hamas rockets fall back into the Gaza strip and kill Palestinians as well. If you were to read the Palestinian Telegram channels like I read, you would have seen the recent little girl being destroyed by an IED that was placed to attack Israeli soldiers. The Muslim culture considers all killed to be martyrs, no matter whose hand killed them. The Western media treating this as if Israel killed every martyr is disingenuous. If you really cared about Palestinian lives, you would recognize that Hamas is also a major factor in killing Palestinians today, and that Hamas could end this entire war by returning the hostages any minute.

> then I fear nothing will ever convince you that Palestinians are human.

How many Palestines in Palestine have you talked to in the recent past? I talk with them almost weekly: face to face, and online. In English, in Arabic, and in Hebrew, in their own towns. You'll see in my past posts that I quote them often, both in defence and in opposition to the state of Israel, and both in defence and in opposition to the Palestinian cause.

  > Have a good day and if you have kids, give them a hug and be glad they don't live in Gaza.

Thank you, I hug my children and like you said, I am glad that they don't live in the Gaza strip.

> They got

First problem: not Israel's to give.

> The problem is that the PA, who rules the West Bank are extremely corrupt, and Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction.

The Ministry of Strategic Affairs couldn't have put it better...

  > First problem: not Israel's to give.

Why not? It was part of Mandatory Palestine, lost to Jordanian occupation in the war for independence, and in 1967 recovered by Israeli forces in the same manner that Jordanian forces took it in the previous war. It had a Jewish population for the past 3,000 years, the only exception being the 19 years that the Jordanians held it because the Jordanians ethnically cleansed the area upon conquering it. At what point in this timeline do the Israelis lose claim to the area, or what have I misrepresented in the timeline?

Perhaps also the illegal occupation, illegal blockades, the bombing, and the genocide. Maybe those things don't matter to you, though.