Re:Signal's New PQ Ratchet
by ezst on Thursday October 02, 2025 @08:57PM
(#45457506)
Signal don't want you to build 3rd party clients and integrations, they are another fully centralised product meant to capture and lock users into what signal believes is better for them. That's the whole "we love opensource but we won't merge your PRs and might lock your account out of the network for using forked clients that got rid of features like crypto that you might not like". I'm still sour for all the bad faith placating "the ecosystem is moving" post by Moxie and the lame excuse for not supporting federation. And no, I'm not finding it hard to onboard family and friends onto secure XMPP clients and accounts.
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Re:Signal's New PQ Ratchet
by frollogaston on Thursday October 02, 2025 @09:33PM
(#45457789)
XMPP was a well intended idea but a bad protocol. Sure federation is good, but they needed a proper standard instead of making everything an optional extension that C2S and S2S never agree on. Like getting the right auth and encryption is even messier than on email.
Also, XML was the wrong choice. Pissed me off as a dev, back when I was doing stuff with ejabberd.
That's the kind of "compelling in theory, irrelevant in practice" comment I would make if I had no/obsolete experience with XMPP. It just works, with a healthy and thriving ecosystem of compatible client/server implementations developed independently by many organisations (small and large) around the world. At the user-level, it's just plug and play. As a developer, you don't even have to see any XML (you can deserialize your stanzas into whatever higher-level/prettier construct the programming language/stack your product depends on)
Re:Signal's New PQ Ratchet
by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:45AM
(#45464265)
The argument that xmpp problems stem from XML format is the silliest of all: from 15 years of working with xmpp, we had all kinds of problems, but none of them were caused by XML format.
Re:Signal's New PQ Ratchet
by frollogaston on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:02PM
(#45464460)
XML isn't the root of any problems, it's just one extra annoyance
Re:Signal's New PQ Ratchet
by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:46PM
(#45464944)
No, it isn't. Source: I work with it every day.
I picked XML for Jabber in 1998, and at that time I think it was the best choice :)
Hi Jeremie, you made the world a better place, thanks for Jabber!
Re:Signal's New PQ Ratchet
by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:41AM
(#45464214)
On the contrary, xmpp is a very good protocol. The problem with it is that most of extensions are bad: half-baked, often contradict or duplicate other extensions, and sometimes solve only part of the problem that they intend to solve.
Disclosure: my team and I are actively working on improving xmpp, but in a rather orthogonal direction to general XSF council route.
> The problem with it is that most of extensions are bad: half-baked, often contradict or duplicate other extensions, and sometimes solve only part of the problem that they intend to solve.
I think that's in the organic nature of protocols catching-up to changing goals and priorities, as the state of the art and the user needs evolve. I think it's pretty-well acknowledged by the XSF (and to a further extent by modernxmpp.org) by curating a short-list of XEPs and behaviours to implement.
I'm glad you aren't finding it hard. I can't even get people to move from Whatsapp and Messenger over to Signal. Only computer geeks seem to care or bother, so that's who is on my Signal list.
That's why I skip the Signal intermediate stage plain and simple: once Signal inevitably enshittifies (a property of centralised services), the people you painfully brought there will no longer kindly listen to you when, lesson learned, you will try to pull them into federated services.
For anyone else (i.e. the majority, which already has 2-5-10 messaging services on their device depending on how you count), quicksy.im does a decent job at emulating the onboarding experience of phone-based social graphs (WhatsApp & al.) and substantially lowers the barrier to being reachable over XMPP.