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Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by OCASMv2 on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @05:41PM (#45204269)
Calling people nazis and fascists nilly willy doesn't even count as hate speech...
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by sharkjacobs on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @06:08PM (#45204672)
"Hate speech" isn't just hateful speech, it's a specific term with a specific meaning. Being a nazi isn't an inherent characteristic of a person, it's an affiliation or ideology that they consciously choose.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by OCASMv2 on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @08:16PM (#45205994)
No when it's a label deliberately misapplied to run of the mill conservatives. That defamation with the purpose of generating hate against those people.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mindslight on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @09:18PM (#45206511)
If someone voted for the autocratic authoritarian with a track record of hating American liberties and institutions, it's dishonest to keep calling them a conservative. If Trumpists were conservatives, the slogan would have been "Keep America Great". The actually conservative vote was Harris/Walz.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by OCASMv2 on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @09:48PM (#45206721)
> autocratic authoritarian with a track record of hating American liberties and institutions

It's that level of hysteria what causes moderates to shift to the right.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by 8note on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @10:48PM (#45207145)
> causes moderates to shift to the right.

As far as i can tell, moderates turn right because they dont like women running for office, and they like that trump has been on TV. they maybe also dont like brown people running, but thats only the one case.

who cares what moderates think though? elections are won by motivated your diehards to vote, and discouraging your opponents from voting

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mindslight on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @10:01PM (#45206819)
What do you mean hysteria? These are straightforward applications of terms:

Trump is an autocrat - he expects everyone to simply fall in line with his orders, as opposed to delegation, separation of powers, and respecting the supreme rule of law. He's an authoritarian, in that he sees government intervention as the main answer to problems (most mainstream politicians are authoritarians, but bureaucratic authoritarians).

Liberty examples from before the second round ("track record") are less clear cut, but a straightforward one is the way he shunned the second amendment when police retaliated against Kenneth Walker for exercising his natural right to night time home defense. But now into the second round, we have gangs of thugs roving around and attacking citizens, so the obvious prediction was indeed correct.

And institutions? His first term, he picked a fight with the CDC for being politically incorrect. This time around, how many government institutions has he outright destroyed? Furthermore, he's graduated to attacking private institutions like universities. His whole popular shtick is basically one big rambling of grievances about US institutions.

I'm sorry that words mean things, and that you apparently have a negative emotional reaction to words that correctly describe Trump. I would call your statement an attempt at gaslighting. "Make America great again" is plainly a revanchist or reactionary (Moldbug's term) slogan, and therefore not conservative.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by OCASMv2 on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @11:33PM (#45207465)
1) That's just your impression of him.

2) Enforcement of the law requires force. Who would have thought?

3) If an institution is corrupt it should be reformed or destroyed. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mindslight on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @11:50PM (#45207591)
(1) is a postmodern relativist platitude. If you have a specific argument that I've judged something incorrectly, make it.

I can't tell what point (2) is supposed to apply to. In general authoritarians are eager to use force to enforce top-down prescriptive laws, yes.

(3) I didn't say it's wrong to destroy or gut institutions perceived as corrupt. What I said is that it's not conservative.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by OCASMv2 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @12:05AM (#45207677)
1) You didn't even present an argument, just your personal impression of him.

2) Law enforcement. It's in the name.

3) Are you under the impression that "conservative" just means to keep things as they are no matter what?

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mindslight on Thursday September 11, 2025 @01:03AM (#45207963)
(1) A summary of lots of people's judgements of him, which line up with my judgement of his actions. I see the type of person that just barks orders, and when someone tells him it's unwise/impossible/etc he responds with "get it done". And when it doesn't magically happen "you're fired". He surrounds himself with sycophants instead of competence, which is why all of his policies have such terrible execution - one person simply cannot micro manage every detail.

Do you disagree that he is basically running the government as an extension of himself? To me, it sure seems that way when he uses chaotic tariffs to pressure other countries into making "deals" that often include his own personal financial interests.

(2) As I said, I don't understand what specific point of mine you're referring to. There are laws and enforcement in both individual liberty respecting societies, and also in dictatorships. So clearly it matters what the laws are, and how they're being enforced.

(3) No, which is why I was talking about respect for societal institutions. For every American thinker's elucidation of conservative values that I have tried to apply, if I squint I can see maybe 20-40% of them being applicable, with the rest being openly rejected.

Perhaps you would like to reference what specific set of conservative values you see Trumpism actually following? I don't mean aiming to destroy our society such to the point that conservative values will become more important, but actually applying those values to the present situation. Because as a libertarian who has entertained ideas all around the left-right political spectrum, the only thing I can find that lines up is anarcho-capitalism.

Or to come at it from a different direction, read Moldbug's "A Gentle Introduction to Unqualified Reservations". He lays out a left-right framework that seems to be underpinning much of this movement, and explicitly rejects conservatism as ineffective.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by OCASMv2 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @03:49PM (#45215448)
1) If that was the case he wouldn't have joined with RFK Jr, who is publicly against mRNA vaccines which Trump champions.

2) They are being enforced just fine.

3) You talk about conservative values but you mention none specifically.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mindslight on Thursday September 11, 2025 @04:24PM (#45215759)
I don't see how your (1) is a refutation of a fundamental autocratic dynamic (furthermore Trump may "champion" mRNA vaccines with one side of his mouth, but he talks out of both). And you still haven't made any coherent point with your (2)s.

(3) seems to be the crux of the issue. I am giving you the opening to pick a thinker who has best articulated what you see as a good enumeration of timeless conservative values, which we can then use to judge Trumpism. Because believe it or not, I am open to changing my mind here and I really do want to understand.

If you'd like me to pick, I can certainly do that. But then I don't want to then hear that I haven't picked the "right" conservative for your taste.

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Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by o11c on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @06:59PM (#45205265)
Let me know if there's even a single Republican who actually limits targets to actually-illegal immigrants.

I occasionally come across one but for some reason they always get pressured out of the party.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by xienze on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @07:12PM (#45205405)
Can you provide a source where a Republican says we need to target all immigrants? Or are you simply imagining things because the media always conflates illegal immigrants with legal ones?
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by bcrosby95 on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @07:09PM (#45205372)
Plenty of people I know believe illegal immigrants should be deported. The difference between them and people accused of being a Nazi is they don't go around calling them all rapists and murderers.

The problem isn't the claimed actions they want to take, its the dehumanization being resorted to.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by xienze on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @07:19PM (#45205478)
You’re exaggerating greatly, of course. Among those deported are rapists and murderers, naturally, and no one has stated that everyone being deported or even targeted is one (the recent Hyundai bust comes to mind). I challenge you to find that quote.
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Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by xienze on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @07:26PM (#45205562)
Did he say all?

And he’s not entirely wrong either, it’s not all rocket scientists and engineers crossing the border.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by zahlman on Wednesday September 10, 2025 @09:36PM (#45206638)
>Being a nazi isn't an inherent characteristic of a person, it's an affiliation or ideology that they consciously choose.

Sure.

But the overwhelming majority of people called "nazis" by their political opponents have objectively not chosen anything remotely of the sort.