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Re:The wall confronting large language models by measurablefunc on Wednesday September 03, 2025 @05:15PM (#45120484)
If you think there is a mistake in this argument then I'd like to know where it is: https://markov.dk.workers.dev/.
Re:The wall confronting large language models by CamperBob2 on Wednesday September 03, 2025 @10:29PM (#45122838)
A Markov chain is memoryless by definition. A language model has a context, not to mention state in the form of the transformer's KV store.

The whole analogy is just pointless. You might as well call an elephant an Escalade because they weigh the same.

Re:The wall confronting large language models by measurablefunc on Thursday September 04, 2025 @12:07AM (#45123454)
Where is the logical mistake in the linked argument? If there is a mistake then I'd like to know what it is & the counter-example that invalidates the logical argument.
Re:The wall confronting large language models by versteegen on Thursday September 04, 2025 @03:54AM (#45124761)
A Transformer with a length n context window implements an order 2n-1 Markov chain¹. That is correct. That is also irrelevant in the real world, because LLMs aren't run for that many tokens (as results are bad). Before it hits that limit, there is nothing requiring it to have any of the properties of a Markov chain. In fact, because the state space is k^n (alphabet size k), you might not revisit a state until generating k^n tokens.

¹ Depending on context window implementation details, but that is the maximum, because the states n tokens back were computed from the n tokens before that. The minimum of course is an order n-1 Markov chain.

Re:The wall confronting large language models by versteegen on Thursday September 04, 2025 @09:02AM (#45126789)
Specifically, an order n Markov chain such as a transformer, if not otherwise restricted, can have any joint distribution you wish for the first n-1 steps: any extensional property. In which case you have to look at intensional properties to actually draw non-vacuous conclusions.

I would like to comment that there are a lot of papers out there on what transformers can or can't do that are misleading, often misunderstood, or abstract so far from transformers as implemented and used that they are pure theory.

Re:The wall confronting large language models by logicchains on Thursday September 04, 2025 @03:03AM (#45124408)
It assumes the LLM only runs once, i.e. it doesn't account for chain of thought, which makes the program not memoryless.
Re:The wall confronting large language models by measurablefunc on Thursday September 04, 2025 @03:12AM (#45124467)
There is no such assumption. You can run/sample the LLM & the equivalent Markov chain as many times as you want & the logical analysis remains the same b/c the extensional equivalence between the LLM & Markov chain has nothing to do w/ how many times the trajectories are sampled from each one.