> Shouldn't be that blatantly ideological, it's not a political platform

Yeah! This always stands out like a sore thumb on the website. Like _yeah_, all of it should go without saying! You're a freely available programming language, of course everyone can use it! Of course everyone is welcome! Does a hammer care about your gender or race? No, anyone can use it! It's also very weird and a little childish to specifically include "no nazi bullshit". Isn't it obvious that "nazi bullshit" isn't welcome? Like a no-brainer? Why does a programming language feel the need to say this? Are prominent nazis actively showing interest in Gleam and trying to promote their "bullshit" with it?

Also, the phrase "nazi bullshit" is severely downplaying the problem with the nazis. "Bullshit" is usually something mildly inconvenient, somewhat unfair, kinda infuriating, but it usually doesn't threaten anybody and doesn't fuel world wars.

> Isn't it obvious that "nazi bullshit" isn't welcome? Like a no-brainer?

Unfortunately, not in this day and age.

> Why does a programming language feel the need to say this?

It's less about "the language saying it" and more about the standards of the community that surrounds the language.

For a language to thrive, it needs a community of people contributing to it. If it doesn't, it'll eventually die unused. As such, there's more than "just the language"; it is also a community-building effort.

> Also, the phrase "nazi bullshit" is severely...

IMHO, you're reading too much into the word "bullshit".

No programming language community allows anything remotely resembling nazism, and they don't feel the need to say it out loud because it goes without saying. When they say it explicitly it's because they mean "nazi bullshit" to be "anything even slightly right leaning". Gleam is the most highly politicised language community I have ever seen by a long shot. I'm not making a normative claim here btw, I'm just sharing what I've observed.

> I'm just sharing what I've observed

Can you be more specific? I'm curious about the types of "slightly right leaning" things that you think are reasonable to say in a programming language community, but that would be controversial or forbidden in a "highly politicised"/"no nazi bullshit" community.

Any praise of capitalism, any outward support of right leaning parties, any criticisms of immigration policy, etc.

HN itself has quite a lot of "nazi bullshit." You don't usually, regularly see people being virulent about it but people frequently endorse policies that would absolutely have fit cleanly into the historical nazi party's platform. Things like race science and eliminationist policies against the homeless, anti-immigration stances, homo- and transphobia are particularly popular. People here are normally "polite" about it and we seem to all have decided that means it doesn't count. It does count.

Either you're lying about the frequency or your definitions of these terms vary wildly from the mainstream.

The latter I see.

As I said, several of these would fit cleanly into the historical nazi party's platform. A pretty narrow claim that I would certainly not accept about a site I was moderating.

Ok, but if you read the "wolf in sheeps clothing" party program of the nazi party and put it in the context of the aftermath of what the party actually did, you'd realize that they don't actually care about their program and only ever used it as a wedge to blame outgroups for the ills of society.

What I'm trying to say here is that the nazis were outwardly role playing socialists to appease workers, but when it was time to punish the "capitalists" they didn't seem to care whether they were actually capitalists and were more interested in whether a person was part of the ingroup (=white christian Germans) or not. In other words, if capitalism or market economies are rigged, then they only care about whether the economic system is rigged in favor of the ingroup.

The reason why I'm responding to you is that the barrier to a nazi accusation is essentially zero these days and most anti-fascists I've encountered are essentially the spitting mirror image of fascism. They declare an outgroup, but call it nazi this time. Then the anti-fascist logic allows the justification of infinite retaliation. Any shred of being principled is completely thrown out the window.

Because nazis controlled all of Germany for a time, they've done a lot of things that can be attributed to them, which means there are a lot of things you can take about any ordinary person and create a very loose nazi association through motivated reasoning.

Note that in a mirror image, left and right are swapped. They're not the same, but they are eerily similar.

Yep, these days you can be fed Youtube shorts of people arguing the Green Party in Germany are Nazis, while there is an actual party (AfD) that puts hidden hitler moustaches on Alice Weidel in their official fliers. That same party claims Adolf Hitler was a leftist and leftism is bad, which is good, because they're not leftists, but they also happen to like Adolf Hitler.

I used to be on the fence with this, finding the ideology-forward attitude fairly abrasive. I've since decided that while I don't love it, I see the perceived necessity of it that some people have. I enjoy the privilege of living somewhere and being a person who no one cares to cause problems for. Some people don't have that experience, and are targeted routinely and unfairly. I see it like they put up these barriers and deterrences because they need to, not just that they want to. People who support them participate in that endeavour because it matters enough.

For guys like me, it seems like a needless distraction from what matters. Unless I consider living a life in which there are people who don't want me to exist, or something. Then yeah, I might throw up a few "please fuck off" signs, I don't know.

I used to think it was kinda pander-y, but then after participating in some of these communities it was just obnoxious when it wasn't stated, the cultural wedge between people. Where randomly there was drama from someone posting an unrelated yet offensive meme/joke, then it was a huge discussion on if it was ban worthy, if it was okay to joke about, or xyz. When really I just wanted to be nerdy with others.

I get that. You can put up the signs, but it doesn't need to be a regular, loud topic in the community. In fact, the signs should serve to prevent the need to discuss it in the community and make moderation cleaner and easier.

I like what Rust does: they make the LGBTQ+ flag the background of the discord icon. Nuff said.

I dunno, it seems like everyone should have learned lessons from the sordid scala and node drama incidents, but instead they're just forgotten.

Don't make in groups and out groups. Just have a "be nice" rule and leave it at that.

The trouble is that nazis think it's very nice to get rid of the untouchables. Life is messy, you've got to set some boundaries and stick to them or jerks gum up the works.

Then they're evidently not being nice to the ones they deem untouchables, and can be expelled.

The Gleam community has been the best, most welcoming community I've ever seen on the internet. And I've been a around for a while. I attribute this in part to their clear stance.

I was welcomed too, and strongly encouraged to contribute. It was really nice. Though the signals might appear abrasive to some, it doesn't represent an abrasive group of people at all.

Joining their Discord and getting greeted by the language creator himself within a few minutes was pretty cool. Most other languages, their creators/maintainers seem so unapproachable and distant. You can talk directly with the core team on there, ask questions, etc. Louis really has built a pretty fun community around Gleam.

The good thing is, you don't have to be tolerant with the intolerant. And that's exactly what they are advertising. It let the nice people flow in, as you experienced.

Programming languages aren’t math—they are cultural products that have the right to express their values and objectives

Trans people are over represented in compilers communities. You don’t get programming languages without the hard work of people in the trans community. In a world where they are constantly under attack, it’s important to make them feel safe and welcome. Trans people are welcome in our dev communities and that needs to be explicitly stated these days, because trans inclusion is not implied in our bigoted society.

But this is not very relevant to the release announcement?

When you put distracting things on your homepage, don't be surprised when they're distracting

I didn't find it distracting. Why you?

> It's just another programming language, not a political platform

Politics is baked into everything we do, like the lack of any political messaging is still a political message. With this approach, it weeds out those that don't align with the core community which is ideal for an organization that only thrives with volunteer involvement.

> It shouldn't be that blatantly ideological from the get go. It's just another programming language, not a political platform.

It's first and foremost a community, and it's important for communities to have clear a code of conduct and moderation of that code.

There are lots of languages without community, Gleam is not one of those.

Gleam is an incredible technical achievement and the community an amazing social one. You should be proud of both, thank you for your clear vision and commitment on this issue despite so much consistent external pushback.

Thank you, you are very kind. I am extremely proud of the community, they are wonderful lot.

Being anti-nazi is not ideological.

Of course it is. You can't be against anything without an idea, without it you wouldn't be opposed, you'd just not give a shit. Not caring isn't ideological just like not believing in god isn't, but being anti-god? That's pure ideology.

Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism.

Yeah, like not spending your every penny on poor is accepting a misery.

In The Good Place, a brilliant show, there’s a great scene where we find out why people stopped getting into the "Good Place" after they died. Life used to be simple before: if you bought your wife a flower, it was a straightforward good deed. Now every action is tainted, because the CEO of the flower company employs child labor, cheats on his wife, and murders bees with pesticides. Ah, and he is an nazi.

No, that’s not how it is at all. Nobody is obligated to give a damn. Not fighting isn’t the same as supporting, and that’s the biggest lie that has thoroughly fucked this world. It’s the exact opposite: only not giving a shit can still save it.

> Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism.

This is some "critical theory" nonsense. The real world isn't divided into two camps, "those actively for" and "those actively against". You can, and should, just go about your life.

You'll live a happier, more mentally-healthy life by just ignoring the noise and not getting pulled into some sort of "if you're not with us, you're against us" thing.

Gleam is a language, and just like all languages - be it English, Spanish, C++, Python, musical notes, and more - both agreeable and disagreeable people will use it. It's impossible to prevent people who you disagree with from using a language. There's no point in even trying - all you succeed in doing is giving yourself mental grief, anxiety and hardship.

Just do your thing...

> It's impossible to prevent people who you disagree with from using a language

True, but the message on the website starts with "As a community...", and speaks to participation in the Gleam community, not the usage of Gleam as a language. And participation within a community _can_ be prevented by its stewards.

I just want to point out, this conversation has been had over and over, on HN, in the Gleam Discord, and I'm sure in many other places as well - always spurred by the same statement on the Gleam website.

So instead of discussing one of the most beautiful programming languages ever created, we're discussing politics, virtues, and wannabe Nazis. Because of a single sentence on the website...

I don't care either way, but it is notable how distracting that seemingly innocuous statement has become.

Could the community goals not be accomplished in a possibly less divisive way? The first part of the community statement seems entirely sufficient to me.

So, while I don't care and will continue to use Gleam regardless, it does seem to me that greeting curious potential new users with any particular brand of politics (righteous or not) is possibly antithetical to the goals of the language.

I haven't seen any of the previous iterations of the conversation, nor have I had a chance to try Gleam (though it is on my short list!).

> greeting curious potential new users with any particular brand of politics (righteous or not) is possibly antithetical to the goals of the language

But it might be an important goal for the community.

I don't believe even a little bit the success of the community has anything to do with this sentence on the website. The success of the community belongs to the relentless hard work of Louis et al.

The sentence is a source of continuous friction between the language, community, and public. It just seems so... unnecessary.

Half of this thread was consumed with people discussing politics and virtues instead of the v1.12 release - that is a pretty large problem for the language, objectively.

When people google Gleam, they'll find pages/discussions like this instead of people discussing the merits of certain syntax or libraries, new features and the like.

There's a reason most businesses/organizations don't engage in politics... even if the founders have very strong political views.

Your metrics for community success might be misaligned with those of the community stewards.

There's more room for interpretation in "all backgrounds, genders, and experience levels are welcome and respected equally" than with the explicit stated support for BLM, trans rights, and anti-nazi ideologies. Room for interpretation on codes of conduct make for more moderation work, allowing more undesirable behaviours to crop up.

> There's a reason most businesses/organizations don't engage in politics... even if the founders have very strong political views

Yes, but that might not be the goals of the Gleam stewards. Maybe they would rather take a moral stance even if it hurts Gleam's reach.

But how will you control people if you haven't put them in little boxes first?

I think it's valuable for the leaders of a community to make it clear what kind of a community they're trying to build. If you think being anti-Nazi is like, "woke nonsense," then you know that the Gleam community is not going to be for you.

Does that prevent a Nazi from using Gleam? No. But the actual objective is to set the tone.

I've never used Gleam and really don't care either way about the creator's politics, but it would be nice to see Gleam hit the HN front page for once without this same tedious conversation getting repeated every time.

Isn't there something more interesting we can talk about?

The most ironic thing is that if you search for "nazi programming language" you'll find gleam.

Counterpoint: it's actually good to be vocally against nazi bullshit