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Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by sdenton4 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:21AM (#44701974)
Instead of thinking of this as a benefit of wolves (specifically), you can view it as an advantage of having something in their ecological niche. In this case, the niche is 'apex predator.' It's a niche which is repeated across pretty much every ecosystem. They keep populations of their prey species down, preventing overpopulation and the many indirect problems that come with it.

Perhaps without an apex predator the prey species would evolve out of the overpopulation problem eventually. However, species that evolve with a predator tend to reproduce more quickly, which helps avoid being completely wiped out by the predator - when the population constraint impose by the predator is removed, the prey population explodes, leading to particularly pronounced problems.

(Perhaps if we had to contend with some homo-vampirus, we wouldn't have global climate change...)

Overall, humans already interfered in the shape of the ecosystem by removing wolves. You're correct that there's no objective 'correct' state for an ecosystem. But it is worthwhile to help balance ecosystems, especially when they have been unbalanced by our own interventions. Without restoration work, we're headed to a world with humans, livestock, and the few species that manage to live on our margins.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by sghiassy on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:34AM (#44702078)
That’s a strong point. Thanks for the thought
Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by VWWHFSfQ on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:35PM (#44702498)
> species that evolve with a predator tend to reproduce more quickly

As an example of this, a healthy female rabbit will produce anywhere from 20 to 50 additional rabbits in a single year. There have been many documented explosions of rabbit populations due to lack of natural predators which have caused significant ecological crisis.

They've evolved to reproduce so quickly because they are the "food" in the food chain. Without the predators above them, they will _eventually_ stop reproducing so quickly because they are only killing themselves by doing so.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by sdenton4 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @01:33PM (#44702944)
It's worth puzzling about the mechanisms that would lead a fast reproducing species to slow down...

My best guess is that internal competition for scarce resources leads to territoriality, which in turn might select for better resource utilization. Including reduced reproduction, which creates more resource competition. But this doesn't feel super obvious.

Otherwise, we have plague and starvation acting as stand ins for apex predators, which isn't much fun... And apparently isn't generally enough to reduce environmental externalities from over population.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by ndr on Sunday July 27, 2025 @02:15PM (#44703296)
The term of art for everything that includes those factors is "carrying capacity" [0].

It's not as much that the fertility necessarily drops, but that under some conditions the death rate equals or overtakes the birth rate.

And the system is dynamic. So conditions changes, as in some of your examples, even just because the population grows. EG scarcer resources.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by Filligree on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:34PM (#44706986)
That is not necessarily the case. Certainly, overpopulation can cause die-offs…

However, species don’t evolve as a unit. Which genomes are most likely to survive a die-off?

All else being equal?

The ones with the most copies. So not the ones that are holding back on reproductions.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by Saline9515 on Monday July 28, 2025 @06:46AM (#44709435)
What causes them to stop reproducing is the destruction of their natural environment on which they feed on. Which is what you want to avoid.
Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by bbor on Sunday July 27, 2025 @02:44PM (#44703508)

  (Perhaps if we had to contend with some homo-vampirus, we wouldn't have global climate change...)
Humans—like ants—seem to be their own primary predator ;(
Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by Ifkaluva on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:39PM (#44704942)
“Homo homini lupus”
Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by rizzom5000 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @04:24PM (#44704386)
> we're headed to a world with humans, livestock, and the few species...

It looks more and more like we're headed toward a world where we'll regenerate extinct species in labs; and grow our steaks in meat factories. If we no longer need cattle farms, it's possible we'll vote to preserve more lands.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by DiggyJohnson on Sunday July 27, 2025 @06:17PM (#44705233)
I’m usually the last person to take this side of a discussion but I don’t see how feasible since:

  - the existence species regeneration does not imply the incentivize to regenerate and manage the vast majority of extinct species  
  - lack of gene samples for vast majority of species  
  - we don’t and are not very close to having a viable model for environment and species fitness so we can’t accurately model what specifies to regenerate  
  - new species populations have to be managed before and after initial release 
  - land and labor capital investment
Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by sdenton4 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:47PM (#44706736)
All completely correct.

It has been extremely difficult to reintroduce functionally extinct species (ie, regenrate populations in zoos, and then reintroduce them to their original habitat). The animal culture piece is really big.

But probably the biggest issue is that, in almost all cases, the problems that led to extinction in the first place - lack of habitat, poaching, etc - rarely get better with time.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by lukas099 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @06:25PM (#44705290)
I hope so. In the meantime, we should try to preserve as much natural genetic information as possible, even assuming we can vet the species back.
Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by the_af on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:45PM (#44704996)
Is there any evidence this has any traction, is actually feasible (the reintroduction part), and is not merely a publicity stunt for some biotech startups?

I think a more realistic point of view is that once a species is gone, it's truly gone, and that we should worry about keeping alive those still existing, because there's no "undo" button.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by parpfish on Sunday July 27, 2025 @09:52PM (#44706464)
i've always wondered how these plans to bring back extinct species intend to copy the non-genetic factors that made a species what it was.

early life experience learning from parents/siblings are essential for knowing how to properly behave in their environment.

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by the_af on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:10PM (#44706856)
That, and also how they expect to keep any species they manage to "bring back" alive (use of quotes because even that is questionable; the recent stunt with the "direwolves" didn't really create direwolves).

Which ecosystem are these species going to inhabit? How can we keep them alive when other currently existing species are at risk or going extinct?

Re:Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in asp... by jiggawatts on Sunday July 27, 2025 @06:23PM (#44705274)
> homo-vampirus

https://www.rifters.com/blindsight/vampires.htm

The book is great “what if?” in several directions at once including human vampires.