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Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by jordanb on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:21AM (#44701515)
> SLS is the elephant in the room and is a complete disaster

SLS isn't great but it does.. you know.. work.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by perihelions on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:14AM (#44701924)
SLS doesn't serve any actual NASA needs. It's fake make-work. Case in point: Congress expressly ordered NASA to launch Europa Clipper on SLS, to make it appear that SLS was indispensable to core NASA science missions. But, due to design flaws, SLS turned out to be technically incapable of launching Clipper at all. So they backtracked and allowed free-market competition to compete for the Clipper launch. Which it did: a very, very cheap Falcon Heavy launched it instead.

Which it was capable of doing all along—Congress and NASA lied about this, misled the public, to make it appear that their jobs-creating, pork-barrel project was serving some genuine need NASA had. It wasn't! They had alternatives all along—they were pretending they didn't.

When you read about these things, you have to know all the actors you're getting information from, and what motives they have to mislead you.

There's not a single real mission in NASA's budget, or conceivable future budget, that needs an SLS—full stop. Sole exception being the moon project, which was created with the express purpose of finding a problem SLS would be the only answer for (and even that's now in doubt, what with Starship).

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by SJC_Hacker on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:37PM (#44702517)
How many orbital refuels would Starship need for a lunar landing and return mission? Something like 20?

I honestly wonder why we didn't just stick with the Saturn V. 13 launches and only one (non-catastrophic) failure. If it aint broke don't fix it.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by ACCount36 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @04:11PM (#44704289)
How many tons of payload would that Starship land? How many could Saturn V?

If you want to go beyond planting a flag, you need to be thinking of how to land hundreds of tons of equipment and industrial infrastructure on the Moon.

Saturn V isn't a very good fit for that. But SLS is much worse.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by pklausler on Monday July 28, 2025 @02:45PM (#44713936)
What was the one failure of the Saturn V that you mention? If you're thinking of Apollo 13, that took place after the Apollo stack had ditched all of the Saturn V stages.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by SJC_Hacker on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @09:48AM (#44723368)
Apollo 6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_6

Had that happened on a crewed mission, they could have returned astronauts safely. Which is probably why they went ahead with Apollo 8

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by pklausler on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @01:14PM (#44725917)
Thanks for that link!
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by chadcmulligan on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:46AM (#44701705)
I read this recently, and it doesn't sound good

https://idlewords.com/2024/05/the_lunacy_of_artemis.htm

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by brandmeyer on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:16AM (#44701942)
Any argument that is filled with this much ragebait should be dismissed out of hand.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by chadcmulligan on Monday July 28, 2025 @10:07AM (#44711023)
I was hoping it was nonsense and someone would point out the errors, no such luck so far.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by shkkmo on Monday July 28, 2025 @03:34PM (#44714608)
It's not complete nonsense, but it conveniently leaves out key relevant details and includes key pieces of misinformation needed to make the talking points make sense (as you would expect from rage bait.)

> Early on, SLS designers made the catastrophic decision to reuse Shuttle hardware

The law that mandated that NASA built the SLS also required that they re-use that hardware. This wasn't a choice made by NASA designers but by a bipartisan congress and it wasn't designed so much to advance our space program so much as a way to keep funneling money to space contractors with the end of the Shuttle program.

Any article that proposed to discuss the "lunacy" of Artemis without ever mentioning Congress's role in that lunacy is pretty clearly rage bait.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by chadcmulligan on Monday July 28, 2025 @05:44PM (#44716052)
good to know, but the outlook for success is still the same? just the blame is not only NASA.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by shkkmo on Monday July 28, 2025 @06:04PM (#44716281)
Artemis and SLS have many problems but I would look elsewhere than that article if you want an understanding of what they are and why they exist.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by eagerpace on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:35AM (#44701627)
Does it? Do we want to repeat what we did 50 years ago or do we want to do something better and stay this time?
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by jordanb on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:39AM (#44701651)
"Meet your mission objectives on the first try" is a pretty reasonable - if low-bar - definition of "works".
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by belter on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:27AM (#44701560)
Except for the under powered orbits but that is a whole other issue.

https://youtu.be/XFIvKSVRtZ0

https://youtu.be/sGT-8PHSVso

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by jordanb on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:37AM (#44701634)
While it's hard to get the truth out of SpaceX but there's reliable evidence that the block one starship wasn't anywhere near its mass to orbit projections which is why they rushed the block two design which stopped their progress practically cold.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by lupusreal on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:00PM (#44702250)
It doesn't work, not for Moon missions. It was never designed for Moon missions in the first place, the original plan was unspecified "deep space" missions without any clear plan of what it would actually be doing (because it's actual purpose is to keep money flowing to old Shuttle contractors.)

Consequently, it can't do a Moon mission like the Saturn V could, it requires the idiotic nonsense that is the NHRO, which will endanger astronauts because it can't get Orion (which is a whole other can of pork) into a low lunar orbit. It also can't handle the lander, so now Artemis has to count on SpaceX and/or Blue Origin for that, which is probably what you're alluding to not working. But if those don't work, then neither does Artemis and then how can you say SLS works?

Another problem with SLS is it's expensive AF and has a terrible launch cadence. Maybe you think that doesn't really matter, but it is for those reasons that NASA isn't going to test Orion again before putting astronauts on it. The last time they tested Orion, to verify the design and modelling, the heat shield started to come apart. But NASA can't do another test flight, because SLS sucks so hard, so instead they're going to fly Orion on an untested trajectory and trust their modeling to keep astronauts safe. Their same modeling which failed to predict Orion performance the first time. It's homicidally reckless. There is a real risk of this becoming yet another instance of NASA management's "go culture" getting people killed. Apollo 1, Challenger, Columbia, each time they say they've learned their lesson and will make changes to ensure it doesn't happen again, but either those changes are only superficial or they decay over time. We're now on the precipice of NASA management flying astronauts around the Moon with a heat shield which may quite possibly disintegrate during reentry, because SLS is too expensive for NASA to test it but NASA management wants to move forward anyway.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by matthewdgreen on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:19PM (#44702379)
We need to have a viable heavy rocket launch capability in the US at any given time, at very least just in case we detect an asteroid on a collision course. Right now that seems to fall entirely onto Falcon 9 (and Falcon Heavy), but the max payload weight even for Falcon Heavy seems much lower than the planned payload for SLS. Someday Starship may fix this, but we don't know if it will -- or if the final version will actually meet the planned specs.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by lupusreal on Sunday July 27, 2025 @02:57PM (#44703631)
> We need to have a viable heavy rocket launch capability in the US at any given time

Well we don't have that. SLS isn't it and never will be. The most SLS can be is a heavy lift rocket that can be used once every few years with a lot of upfront notice. Certainly not "launch capable" at "any given time".

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by matthewdgreen on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:31PM (#44704876)
I don’t think “at any given time” means we have an asteroid intercept mission sitting around on standby, although that’d be nice. I think it means “the capability exists and can be rushed to readiness over a series of weeks or months, at virtually unlimited cost.” Not sure that’s possible any other way. I would be fine with canceling SLS once good heavy lift alternatives are available, though.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by SJC_Hacker on Sunday July 27, 2025 @01:05PM (#44702725)
> It doesn't work, not for Moon missions. It was never designed for Moon missions in the first place, the original plan was unspecified "deep space" missions without any clear plan of what it would actually be doing (because it's actual purpose is to keep money flowing to old Shuttle contractors.)

Maybe I'm missing some details but I thought the entire purpose of first-stage rockets was to get a certain payload with certain max dimensions (what can fit inside a cylinder of a certain height and radius) to LEO, or the equivalent delta-V. At that point first stage is discarded anyway. So what exactly the payload is (beyond its dimensions) and you do with your payload after getting to LEO (or equiv delta V) that shouldn't really make a difference, and you can't blame the first stage (which SLS is) for that if it did its job.

In the case of SLS, Block I can get 95 metric tons, Block I-B can get 105 tons and Block II 130 tons.

The Falcon Heavy in comparison can only get max 64 tons to LEO, less if you want to recover boosters and the core to save money

The real winner is the Saturn V which could get 140 tons to LEO. I know it was expensive per launch (about $1 billion in 2025 dollars) but given all the billions we've blown on trying to develop cheaper tech it seemed like we could have just stuck with what we know worked

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by lupusreal on Sunday July 27, 2025 @02:54PM (#44703606)
> "Maybe I'm missing some details but I thought the entire purpose of first-stage rockets was to get a certain payload with certain max dimensions (what can fit inside a cylinder of a certain height and radius) to LEO, or the equivalent delta-V. At that point first stage is discarded anyway. So what exactly the payload is (beyond its dimensions) and you do with your payload after getting to LEO (or equiv delta V) that shouldn't really make a difference,"

It makes a difference because if you're designing a rocket for a mission then you'll have a rocket that's as close to optimal for the mission, given mission requirements, timelines and budgets as you can reasonably get it. That's not SLS, the Moon mission wasn't planned when SLS was designed and instead SLS is optimized to reuse Shuttle hardware.

Being stuck with a rocket that wasn't designed for the mission, as well as the political decision to use Orion, severely compromise the planning of Artemis. SLS lacks the power to get Orion into a proper lunar orbit, so instead they're going to use a highly elliptical NHRO lunar orbit with an orbital period of 7 days. This is extremely dangerous, it means that if there is any sort of emergency on the moon the astronauts may have to wait as long as a week to get back to Orion; which is probably a death sentence. It also means the lander has to be huge to make up for SLS's inadequacy, which means the Artemis program now relies on the success of Starship HLS and/or Blue Origin's HLS. This is going to delay Artemis and the entire reason this dependency exists is because Congress wanted a shuttle-derived rocket foremost, and then made the situation even worse by saddling it with their Boeing pork capsule.

What it comes down to is SLS is a rocket that ""works"" but isn't actually good at anything and therefore never should have been built.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by SJC_Hacker on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @09:53AM (#44723421)
Why would 7 days be some death sentence? ISS missions have lasted a heckuva lot longer than that