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Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by gizmo on Saturday September 01, 2012 @03:38PM (#4464841)
Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life.

Jaywalking is illegal in most (all?) US cities, but in many it's completely acceptable behavior. Jaywalking in Seattle (edit: was Manhattan), on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Jaywalking in the Netherlands is completely fine (even right in front of the police), but in Germany it's not. The laws are the same, but the culture is different.

There are thousands of examples of socially acceptable behavior that doesn't correspond with the law. Drinking in public. Sometimes fine, sometimes not. Forging a signature. Occasionally fine, usually not.

Startups break laws all the time too. You have to get a product out first, and only when you start making money you get lawyers involved to make sure everything is going by the books. But if you aren't making real money yet the government really doesn't care whether you follow every law to the letter. And as a founder you have to decide which laws can be broken safely and which laws must be obeyed. Get it wrong and you may lose your company: either through legal trouble or because it doesn't get off the ground. The founders talk freely about the laws they broke. They brag about it! It's considered clever. Relentlessly resourceful. It's a fine line.

So if the culture in Harvard was such that cooperating for take-home exams was sometimes acceptable and sometimes not, then I consider that a legitimate excuse. It's easy to test too. Just look at the exams of that course of the previous years and check if people worked together on those too. Compare with other courses. If the results show that students consistently break the "individual work only" clause for some courses and not for other courses then the students probably didn't think they were doing anything wrong. They were just acting in the socially accepted manner.

Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by pagliara on Saturday September 01, 2012 @04:02PM (#4464938)
"In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life."

I completely agree. Especially for entrepreneurs, it's a super important skill that is not easily learned but often creates incredible advantages and opportunities.

Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by badclient on Saturday September 01, 2012 @03:47PM (#4464868)
Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer.

Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by graeme on Saturday September 01, 2012 @03:50PM (#4464883)
Everyone jaywalked when I was in Manhattan. It's a very pedestrian city.
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by benblack86 on Saturday September 01, 2012 @05:32PM (#4465217)
I don't walk, I jaywalk!
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by EricBurnett on Saturday September 01, 2012 @03:51PM (#4464885)
Substitute Seattle for Manhattan and the point stands.
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by mathgladiator on Saturday September 01, 2012 @04:51PM (#4465092)
I live in Seattle, and everyone jay-walks all the time. The hand which indicates stop is widely ignored.
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by gizmo on Saturday September 01, 2012 @03:53PM (#4464896)
I guess I'm wrong about that then. When I was there last everybody seemed to wait for the light to turn green. I'll edit the original post.
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by badclient on Saturday September 01, 2012 @04:00PM (#4464929)
Most people don't jaywalk for safety reasons, not fear of being ticketed.
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by edge17 on Saturday September 01, 2012 @10:56PM (#4465968)
i've seen people get tickets in time square. that's about it though
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by wisty on Monday September 03, 2012 @09:14AM (#4470224)
One of these things is not like the other.

Yes, there are things which are culturally acceptable, but technically against the rules. Just because you get away with murder, and don't get caught, that doesn't mean murder is OK.

It's quite clear that plagiarism was badly enforced, but anyone who admitted to it would have been severely punished. Most of your examples are completely different - they are things that nobody cares about, even if you get caught.

Arguably, it's a terrible system if severe crimes are routinely left unpunished. Either the penalty should be lowered, or they should enforce it better.

So while I don't just blame the students, I think it's a sign that the system is fucked. The students are part of it, as are the lectures, and universities (do they fire lecturers who don't try to catch cheats, the same way they fire unpopular lecturers?), employers (perhaps they should test graduates to see if they are actually competent?), and society in general.

Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by zerostar07 on Saturday September 01, 2012 @04:37PM (#4465039)
Except that school is not real life. It's like a game or a sport where you train for real life. Is it right to unilaterally break the rules of a game?
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by dschobel on Saturday September 01, 2012 @06:56PM (#4465426)
Seems like an arbitrary distinction. Job, school, marriage, et al are all social constructs with certain principles and rules to try keep things operating smoothly and beneficially to all participants. You can break the rules in any of them to the detriment of your counter-parties. In this case, they cheapen the brand of a Harvard degree and potentially screw the non-cheaters if there's a grading curve.
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by zerostar07 on Sunday September 02, 2012 @07:30AM (#4466779)
I think there is a distinction, since cheating completely defeats the purpose of school (learning) or games (fun), while breaking some rules may create more value than it destroys in the case of entrepreneurs (like Airbnb and Uber do).
Re:Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Wa... by tkahn6 on Saturday September 01, 2012 @05:52PM (#4465262)
> They were just acting in the socially accepted manner.

Yes, I'm guessing that this sort of thing is very common at Harvard (and, to be fair, in all colleges). They reasoned that the risk of getting caught was low enough to justify the cheating.

And they got caught. They lost their bet. So now they should pay the price.