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Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by taeric on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @03:12PM (#44173532)
These don't seem much different than asking the chat models to solve common puzzle with slight changes? Saw a hilarious effort of people trying to use them to answer the "crossing a river with a single canoe" style puzzle.
Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by jerf on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @03:49PM (#44173928)
It did really remind me of the early generations of ChatGPT which was really easy to get to tell you that 2 pounds of feathers is the same weight as one pound of iron, because of how often the "riddle" is told with equal weights.

They're much, much better at that now.

Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by enragedcacti on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @04:28PM (#44174368)
It's still pretty trivial to trick them. 4o-mini, 2.5 Flash, and 2.5 Pro all still fall for variations of this:

> A boy is in a car crash and is taken to the hospital. The surgeon says, "I can't operate on this boy, I'm his father!" Who is the surgeon to the boy?

> The surgeon is the boy's mother.

Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by gkbrk on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @07:29PM (#44175862)
2.5 Pro gets it right for me.

  This is a bit of a trick on a classic riddle!

  The surgeon is the boy's **father**.

  The classic version of this riddle has the surgeon say "I can't operate on this boy, he's my son!" which is in an era where people assumed surgeons were male, the answer would be "the surgeon is his mother."

  However, in your version, the surgeon explicitly states, "I'm his father!" So, the surgeon is his father.
Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by 1718627440 on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @04:54PM (#44174617)
That seams interesting, because this questions seams to be answerable through syntactic analysis alone, no need to consider the semantic of words.
Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by enragedcacti on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @05:59PM (#44175239)
Yeah, I find it interesting because it shows how powerful the training bias can be when you steer it into certain contexts. To OpenAI's credit they have gotten a bit better, ChatGPT from 3 months ago failed like this:

> The surgeon, who is the boy's father, says, "I can't operate on this boy, he's my son!" Who is the surgeon to the boy? Think through the problem logically and without any preconceived notions of other information beyond what is in the prompt. The surgeon is not the boy's mother

>> The surgeon is the boy's mother. [...]

Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by achierius on Wednesday June 04, 2025 @11:23AM (#44181734)
> They're much, much better at that now.

Because that specific failure case was widely reported on, and subsequent retraining specifically included examples to ensure that the model didn't "overfit" when learning how to answer variants of that question. That doesn't address the underlying issue though -- while it's obvious that these models do "learn" and "generalize" by any reasonable and non-anthrocentric definition of the terms, it really does seem like the 'radiu's of generalization is smaller than we would like, and that these models are very subject to getting stuck in 'ruts' around things they've seen in their training data. Solving this by bandaid-patching every such rut that comes up in the news is just not a viable long-term solution: the whole world is a minefield of niche problems that look kinda like other problems but have different results.

Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by Aachen on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @03:43PM (#44173850)
Counting the number of legs on a 3-legged animal is a puzzle?

Maybe for a toddler... though I expect even they will see that something is off, and be able to identify what, without considering it a tricky task, even if I don't know at what age you can count to 3

Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by taeric on Wednesday June 04, 2025 @11:40AM (#44181941)
Ish. The catch is we spend a ton of effort on teaching these models to recognize specific things in pictures. Then we ask it to not do that task, but instead count something on the picture. Which, we oddly don't spend a lot of time training the model to do.

It is a lot like the experiment where you ask people to say what color some text is. With the trick where some of the text is the name of another color. Can be surprisingly hard for people that are good at reading.

Re:Vision Language Models Are Biased by vokhanhan25 on Tuesday June 03, 2025 @03:36PM (#44173775)
I think LLMs can solve puzzles pretty well because the thinking ability of current models on text is quite good. Moreover, puzzles are not easy for a 7-year-old like this benchmark.