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Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by CWuestefeld on Thursday August 16, 2012 @04:21PM (#4393462)
The problem with positive rights such as these [1] is that it's difficult to say that someone has a right to something when it may actually be impossible to actually make good on it.

This is part of the difficulty with the USA's current healthcare debate. It's simply impossible to offer to every person, every imaginable medical care. There are not sufficient resources.

So from a philosophical perspective, how can there exist a fundamental right that cannot be fulfilled?

And then from a practical perspective, someone is going to have to decide where to draw a line. Someone will have to decide who will be given what procedures. The effect of this is that, at the very least, our rights (and not just these new positive ones) will be tossed around like political volleyballs. And at the worst, it creates an explicitly class-ful society, where some people are granted privileges that are withheld from others (which is the universal outcome in all Communist nations thus far)

[1] "Positive rights" are those where we say that someone must be given something, as with food, shelter, or healthcare. "Negative rights" are when a person is guaranteed to be free of something, as with freedom of speech (government may not limit speech), freedom from double jeopardy, etc.

Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by pulplobster on Thursday August 16, 2012 @06:44PM (#4394058)
Why is it "simply impossible" to provide healthcare for all? I can name many counter examples of countries that can and do. Have you made the calculation based on finite resources in the world and the size of the world population that it's simply impossible? Even if it would be impossible by today's technological standards to provide care to all, that doesn't mean it's true for the future when there might be additional productivity gains, preventing disease etc.
Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by zevyoura on Thursday August 16, 2012 @05:38PM (#4393802)
I don't think anyone's arguing that there's a fundamental right to all possible health care, but many people would argue that all have a fundamental right to basic health care, which is absolutely possible to offer to all Americans. In fact, many other countries do it while spending less per capita on health care. Of course, there are hard decisions to be made, but the status quo seems worse to me by a long shot.
Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by CWuestefeld on Friday August 17, 2012 @08:58AM (#4396106)
My concern here isn't the breadth (who is covered), but the depth (what and how much is covered). That is, regardless of the number of people we're covering -- whether it's everyone, or excluding the poorest 20% who can't afford insurance, it is impossible to cover every conceivable treatment.

Consider, for example: a headache could be a symptom of brain tumor or other problem, the best diagnosis of which would be through an MRI. We'd like to catch these things as early as possible, so we'd like to do MRIs on everyone who is a possible victim. But imagine that every time a patient walks into the doctor's office with a headache, the doctor orders an MRI for him. How long do you think this practice can be sustained for?

The fact is that in a world with scarce resources, we must make decisions about how to allocate those resources. When the field of medical care is controlled by politicians, then politicians will be making those decisions. The questions over who is covered for what maladies with how much treatment becomes a political question.

So you can expect that maladies that cluster on easily-identifiable demographic groups will receive a disproportionate amount of funding. For example, one might expect that because gays may comprise a voting bloc and suffer from HIV more than others, politicians will pander to them for votes by allocating funds for HIV treatment that are out of proportion with the number of sufferers and the severity. By contrast, other maladies -- say, my Crohn's disease, which has weaker demographic ties -- are likely to be relatively overlooked.

And in the end, although the GOP is certainly using hyperbole in referring to "death panels", someone is going to have to make a decision at some point that treating this 90-year-old geezer just isn't going to have the ROI in terms of quality-life-years saved, and that it's not cost effective to continue treatment.

Anyway, my claim is that when the politicians can decide what and how much you're getting of something, it's difficult (in my mind, at least) to call something a "right". What other rights do we have for which the politicians get to make the decision about how much of that right each of us is entitled to?

Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by zevyoura on Friday August 17, 2012 @09:38AM (#4396252)
Firstly, I don't think your hypothetical qualifies as basic health care. I understand your concerns, but they just don't seem to be huge issues in the countries that actually have implemented universal health care, especially compared to the current situation in the US. Getting caught up in the semantics of where your rights start and end (by the way, many rights are regulated by laws created by politicians) is a distraction from the pragmatic approach of looking at expected outcomes.
Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by CWuestefeld on Friday August 17, 2012 @11:22AM (#4396799)
I don't think your hypothetical qualifies as basic health care.

And there is the problem. Someone has to make this judgment call. It's all a matter of opinion. And it changes over time, there's no single objective answer. Today, "take this Z-pack and keep the wound clean and dry" is a completely ordinary treatment; a century ago it was sci-fi, that wasn't even available to the hyper-rich. When does it cross the lines from experimental to esoteric to mundane?

by the way, many rights are regulated by laws created by politicians

That's only sort of true, at least in the USA. If something is understood to be a right, then those regulations are limited to only what can clear various tests as defined by the courts. Enumerated rights like speech, for example, are protected by a strict scrutiny test; at the other end of the spectrum is the rational basis test.

But in the end, these are actually judged by the courts. In other words, it's ultimately the non-political branch of the government that makes the call.

By contrast, these positive rights are entirely driven by political caprice.

(Caveat: I'm referring to Federal regulation here. It may vary somewhat state-to-state, because of how state Constitutions are designed.)

Re:Why you can't be anything you want to be by zevyoura on Friday August 17, 2012 @11:49AM (#4396993)
You seem to have ignored my central point. I think this has been an interesting discussion, and I'd be interested in your response.