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Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by debacle on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:27AM (#4350512)
Apple's performance here is inexcusable for a software company. It displays either a complete disregard or a complete lack of understanding of basic security.
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by ScottBurson on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:15PM (#4351047)
I think that in particular it shows that they don't have their own internal security team trying to find a way in.

If you run a system on the scale of iCloud, and you don't crack it yourself, you can bet someone else will save you the trouble.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by taligent on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:52PM (#4352222)
I think you are confused.

iCloud was NOT hacked. There was simply a mistake made by a customer service rep as acknowledged by Apple.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by jholman on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @05:19PM (#4352361)
Except that Wired claims to have replicated the "mistake" at least twice (on top of the original attack). So that's a systematic error, and dedicated self-attack team ("tiger team") could have found that, and the hole could have been closed.
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by stephengillie on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:35AM (#4350548)
For support organizations, hackers and social engineers are still edge cases. The primary use case is dealing with paying yet indignantly impatient non-technical users. These people treat identity verification as stalling, thinking you're trying to get them off the line so you don't have to deal with their problem.
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by SoftwareMaven on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:34PM (#4350850)
Munich is why you don't have a one-size-fits-all approach.

If I can't figure out how to turn on my shiny, new Mac, there is zero need to any verification. If I'm asking for a password reset, they should know for sure who I am by the end.

I had to remove an authentication from my Blizzard account once. They required me to do all the normal verification stuff (secret questions, password, etc), send an ID and confirm the process via a contact point I already had on the account. It took 24 hours. And they did it right.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by SoftwareMaven on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @03:59PM (#4351955)
It is always interesting to see what my iPad decided I was trying to say. I wish the edit window was a bit longer. I don't check back immediately.

For the record, "Munich" == "Which" in iPad-ese.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by ajross on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:36AM (#4350558)
I think that might be too harsh. For people like us, customer service policies aren't normally included in "basic security". Obviously they should be. But my guess is that this kind of vulnerability exists all over the world in all sorts of industries.

In the US, at least, regulated banks have some security requirements that might prevent this (though I'm not sure). But outside of that my guess is that it's routine for a customer service agent to be able to make any modification to an account they want, without an extra authentication factor or supervision.

So yes: blame Apple. But be wary, they can't possibly be the only ones.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by equalarrow on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:52AM (#4350655)
Yes, definitely blame Apple, no doubt about it. I'm still a little shocked that the last 4 cc digits constitutes 'security'. An easy alternative - which I think they already have - is the whole two security questions thing. I would feel much better - as a customer - if they used those.

This type of thing is going to happen more and more and the fact that remote wipe of all the devices happened totally negates any advantages of using cloud services. I mean, what's the point of having everything backed up remotely if

a) the backup is not current b) the same remote servers can wipe your devices at any time

In addition, it's possible the remote backups could be removed as well (although not sure about that for iCloud) and in that case, you might as well not back anything up and have a hard drive die (at least that could be recovered I suppose).

Apple needs to jump out in front of this asap and announce a policy change in regards to security in order to put people at ease. I'm glad this is making waves and I think there needs to be more noise about it in order to get them to change.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by pooriaazimi on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:00PM (#4350704)
Well, If he had a backup (either remote or local) it wouldn't have mattered. It would mean a few hours spent with Time Machine, but he wouldn't lose his data. And a remote backup should not be "removable".

Also, don't ever expect Apple to do anything ASAP. Even if the whole world shouts at them, they won't say anything. They take their time to (hopefully) think this through.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by bruceboughton on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:05PM (#4350727)
>> Well, If he had a backup (either remote or local) it wouldn't have mattered.

For this specific thing, no. But this was a fairly blatant act by the hacker. What if they silently read your iCloud mail, or used the Find my iPhone functionality to stalk you.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by pooriaazimi on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:20PM (#4350781)
They couldn't silently do anything. They won't give you passwords, they give you the ability to reset it. If the hacker were to reset it, the reporter would notice (as he wouldn't be able to use his account anymore). And I think Find my iPhone would cease working if the password saved by the app does not match what's stored in the cloud (i.e. hacker's bogus password).

In case of cookie sniffing, Google shines. They show you the IP addresses of people who have used your account recently. If you (or them) spot an stalker, you can reset the password. I don't know how effective that could be with 3G, but at least

---

That said, It's no secret that Apple's password system is absolute garbage. I had to reset it 5 times last month because someone was trying to get to my iCloud account (probably brute-force). Apple would de-activate my account and would require me to re-enter security questions and choose a "new" password that I haven't used in the past year. And every time I had to spend an hour typing the new password in my various devices. AND I WOULDN'T RECEIVE MAILS IN THE MEANTIME. Just ridiculous.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by furyg3 on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:13PM (#4351033)
The security questions business is hard, too.

Many sites use things which are public information (mother's maiden name) but even question's like "Where were you on this important date?" or "what was your first car?" start to look pretty silly in the age of Facebook. Worse, a dropbox-loving facebooker who's checking his gmail account from his iPhone probably has enough information in many of those places to compromise the other accounts.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by jwbaker on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:54PM (#4351297)
You should never give legit answers to these security questions. I just paste in the output of pwgen -s 32 1. This may make your account harder to "recover" but it also makes it harder to steal.
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by raverbashing on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @05:06PM (#4352305)
For a compromise, you can add the correct answer but with a quirk. (that is easier, unless you forget the quirk)

like, put the first name in "Mother's maiden name", or the middle name, or swap their position

And you are right to treat it as a passsword

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by furyg3 on Wednesday August 08, 2012 @07:30AM (#4354982)
Yes, this is exactly what I do. I have interesting results sometimes;

  Bank: I'll just need you to confirm your mother's maiden...um...um
  Me: Yes, it's a long string of random characters, want me to read it?
  Bank: No, that's ok, thanks.
:/
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by debacle on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:39AM (#4350567)
I've had plenty of banks ask me to call back later because I didn't meet all of their screening vectors for identity verification simply because I didn't have a certain piece of information available at the time.

Frustrating? Yes. But good security can't be transparent to the user.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by codemac on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:47AM (#4350618)
Amazon was a great example of this for me. I was trying to get a phone I had purchased through them replaced, and they asked me what my "display name" was.

Now I had completely blanked on what that was.. was it my username? Was it my full name? Was it the beginning part of my email? gah, I'm on break outside a cafe and thought I could get this settled quick..

So the person on the phone, in quite a polite and understandable way, gave me a number to call back directly when I could remember it as I had passed all other verification steps. Had a moment of clarity and called back 2 seconds later and got on with it. They overnighted me a brand new phone.

I rate that interaction a 10/10. 9/10 if we can imagine a world of omniscient amazon that knows when I've received broken items..

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by rmc on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:24PM (#4350804)
Frustrating? Yes. But good security can't be transparent to the user.

Nearly always security is the opposite of convenience. Once people realise that you can be "more secure" or "more convenient" we'll all be better off. This implies to be "more secure" you must be "less convenient". It's always a trade off.

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by rmc on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:22PM (#4350790)
In the US, at least, regulated banks have some security requirements that might prevent this (though I'm not sure). But outside of that my guess is that it's routine for a customer service agent to be able to make any modification to an account they want, without an extra authentication factor or supervision.

The EU has data protection law, which means companies that store personal data are legally required to ensure it's safe. I wonder if Apple are in breech of the law here?

Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by sigkill on Wednesday August 08, 2012 @03:25AM (#4354370)
I'm not a lawyer, but technically the hacker didn't "hack" the computer systems. So I'd wager that you can't slap a data protection law. But on the other hand, they definitely are legally liable for even a social-engineered attack. Maybe they'll get hit with negligence?
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by rmc on Wednesday August 08, 2012 @04:57AM (#4354591)
EU Data protection law is not about "data in the computer sense" but personal information. It's not related to computers per se at all. If someone can just ring up and ask for personal information, that would be against the law. If customers personal details are written up in walls on their public offices, that would probably be illegal aswell.
Re:The weakest link by far is Apple by Jamiecon on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:36PM (#4350859)
<flippant>But par for the course for a consumer entertainment products company</flippant>

In my blinkered world, Google and Facebook seem to be the companies to beat in the area of security for consumer services. 2-factor auth, proactive account security such as geographic checks etc.

I can see how Apple's corporate mindset would find it painful to sacrifice user experience for security. Google, not so much.

As an aside, it's about time Microsoft offered 2-factor auth for their accounts.