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Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by lxgr on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @09:24AM (#43172231)
> to own an object means to subject it fully to your own will

Not by a long shot. Just a few counterexamples from the top of my head: Destroying currency, altering passports, reproducing copyrighted images.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of even more exceptions of that kind, but I don't think there are any particular inherent rights arising from property ownership beyond from what society agrees on there are (e.g. the first sale doctrine for physical media). That's what makes it even more important to codify these rights.

Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by lolinder on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @09:39AM (#43172426)
> Just a few counterexamples from the top of my head: Destroying currency, altering passports, reproducing copyrighted images.

These aren't counterexamples, they prove the rule. A US passport literally has the text "this passport is the property of the United States" printed inside of it, and I imagine the same is true in most countries: you are the recipient of a passport, not the owner of one.

The same applies to copyrighted images— when you purchase a book you own the physical copy and can fully subject it to your own will, but you don't own the right to make additional copies of it. You own the copy, not the intellectual property.

As for currency, it may not legally be the property of the US government like a passport, but I would argue that the fact that you can't modify it does in fact mean that you don't own the bill, the bill is a representation of an abstraction of "money" that you do own.

Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by freehorse on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @11:00AM (#43173563)
Afaik currency (as in the physical banknote) is actually state property too. What you really own is a promise from the national/federal bank to pay you the value that is written.
Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by lolinder on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @11:05AM (#43173638)
Yeah, that has been my understanding, but I couldn't find a citation for that right away, so I didn't want to assert it confidently. But I've heard the same thing.
Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by throwaway28409 on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @09:29AM (#43172291)
Note that I said "can", not "legally can". You can destroy currency, alter passport, reproduce copyrighted images if you want to. There may be legal consequences but you can. You can also stab a person with a knife you own, even if you will be punished for it. I'm not talking about rights, but capabilities.

You can't make your phone lie to an app developer about its location, rooted status, etc. You can't make your HP printer print with unsanctioned ink. Therefore, you do not own them.

Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by lxgr on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @09:41AM (#43172451)
I also can't make a pen and a sheet of paper contain a proof showing whether P is equal to NP. Does that mean I don't own them either?

Now you could of course say that the difference is somebody having intentionally designed an object in a way that makes it capable of withholding some functionality from me but not others, and I'd agree.

But all in all, I just don't think "property rights" is the right lens to think about computing devices.

Re:Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes by detourdog on Tuesday February 25, 2025 @09:47AM (#43172517)
You can also not use a service. I think anonymity is a better measure than the ability to lie for co-operative systems.