News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by btilly on Thursday July 26, 2012 @10:36AM (#4296136)
The problem with it is that you are assuming that your users are blithering idiots without any actual work to do.

One of the most widely replicated UX results is that over half of people don't "get" the concept of a nested directory structure. Not even when you try to explain it to them.

Not dumb people either. College graduates. It seems to be a mental block. It is not one you will find among programmers (anyone who can't understand this is unable to become a programmer), but if you're designing for the general population you need to be aware of it.

The result is that any user interface which forces people to be aware of a directory structure is going to confuse the heck out of real people. You may have a directory structure. But to get happy users you need to keep them blissfully unaware of it.

Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by doktrin on Thursday July 26, 2012 @12:55PM (#4297045)
One of the most widely replicated UX results is that over half of people don't "get" the concept of a nested directory structure. Not even when you try to explain it to them. Not dumb people either. College graduates. It seems to be a mental block.

I have never heard of this ("most widely replicated UX result"), nor have I ever seen it to be the case on any kind of consistent basis.

In an effort to perform a minimum of due diligence, I ran a couple web searches and no relevant articles were returned.

What I do believe, is that users have difficulty understanding directories / folders as they can be represented on newer OS's as another commenter very eloquently pointed out.

However, I am highly skeptical of the claim that the population at large is simply unable to grasp the basic concept of hierarchical directories.

Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by Spooky23 on Thursday July 26, 2012 @11:15AM (#4296376)
Could you point to a study or something that describes this phenomenon?

I only ask because I work with a huge (50k+) population of people who, based on the evidence I have from systems we manage, do seem to "get it" to varying degrees.

There's definitely a spectrum, from people who are digital slobs to neatniks who have more folders than files.

Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by pessimizer on Thursday July 26, 2012 @01:00PM (#4297094)
I find this too, but I also think that it has something to do with the word "directory." People don't really think of collections of directories (like phonebooks for example), they think of a single directory in which you look up things. When you use "folder", this seems to go away and people get the metaphor. When a tech savvy person is explaining it, they frequently interchange the two terms and confuse the listener. A "directory" is list that you look up things in, like a dictionary, and a "folder" is a object that contains related items.

A list of Artists, Rap, Prince, or Slow songs in some mp3 management software resembles people's ideas of a "directory" better.

One thing I've noticed about these silo/tagging systems and non-savvy users is that, though the users are generally comfortable in them, they also tend to lose data completely a lot and have no idea how to find it again. They also find it very hard to understand the concept of backups because they have no sense of location for any of their data.

"File," "Folder," "Copy," "Move," "Mail," and "Trash" are a really excellent set of terms to explain this stuff easily. Did AAPL or MS come up with this? I find the only problem with them is that people don't understand why you don't end up with two files of the same name in the same folder when you make a copy (because "Copy" is more like "Copy and Move".)

edit: or copy is more like "nothing just happened," really. I think the metaphor becomes broken when you go to clipboards and pasting. Maybe the right metaphor is to make the desktop the clipboard. When people "Copy" a file, folder, or anything else, it should appear on their "Desktop" rather than a "Clipboard," where they can see it at all times, and use it as a shortcut. The desktop doesn't have to be thought of as a proper directory.

Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by csense on Thursday July 26, 2012 @09:32PM (#4299573)
I've always thought that Copy / Cut was a poor metaphor. The metaphors are so awful that I almost never used GUI filesystem manipulation until the mid-2000's, doing everything through the command line. I still usually use the command line.

Okay, I want to move files from point A to point B. What you're supposed to use is "cut" and "paste". If I use "cut" in a text editor, the text is gone until pasted. What if I do a "cut" on files? Are they deleted? Are they put in some super-invisible temporary trash bin? Or does the OS actually do nothing until you "paste" them? Do they have the same clipboard as copied text, or a different one? If you do a "cut" on files in folder A, followed by a "paste" in folder B, followed by another "paste" in folder C, what's the result? How do cut/copy interact with shortcuts, junction points, hardlinks, or symlinks? What are the subtle semantic incompatibilities in these metaphors across different versions of Windows, PC, Mac, Gnome, KDE, etc.?

Using the GUI is a crapshoot in terms of whether what actually happens will match my intent, and I'm an expert; I can scarcely imagine what a n00b's experience must feel like. You can do things much more precisely with command-line mv, cp or xcopy, find | xargs, or writing a simple Python script with os.walk(). About the only thing I use the GUI to do is select a large number of randomly distributed files from a directory.

"Trash" is also confusing, because things don't end up there consistently. If you cut things, they don't; if you delete them from the GUI they do. If you delete things from the command line, they don't. If the things are on a removable device, the Trash doesn't get them. If you delete things within an application, who knows what happens? It depends on whether the app is coded to use whatever API routes stuff to the Trash.

Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by pessimizer on Friday July 27, 2012 @04:01PM (#4303332)
>"Trash" is also confusing, because things don't end up there consistently. If you cut things, they don't; if you delete them from the GUI they do. If you delete things from the command line, they don't.

I think they broke the metaphor there by even using the word "delete" at all. Make them choose between "Trash" or "Shred" and that might work.

Re:What's with this anti-directory structure movement? by nooneelse on Friday July 27, 2012 @10:44AM (#4301645)
I once found myself explaining the details of "Copy" as something like "like making a ghost clone of the original that you are holding and can put it down to make it a real clone if you want to, or just let go of and it disappears"... so yeah, that function didn't get properly made graphical at all. Way too much hidden behavior. The command line, because it makes you specify where the copy goes, is far more clear. If there were a little icon of the file that attached itself to the mouse pointer in between the "copy" and "paste" steps, that might clear things up nicely.