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Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by ericmay on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @04:40PM (#42939207)
You'd never figure out who was "evil" because it's just based on your own interpretation of what evil is. Unless of course you want to join me as a moral objectivist? I don't think Google doing military work with the US government is evil. On the other and I think the influence and destruction caused by advertising algorithms is. Who gets to decide what is evil?

I take issue with "don't blame the employees". You need people to run these organizations. If you consider the organization to be evil you don't get to then say well the people who are making the thing run aren't evil, they're just following orders or they don't know better. BS. And they'd be replaced if they left? Is that really the best argument we have against "being evil"?

Sorry I'd be less evil but if I gave up my position as an evil henchman someone else would do it! And all that says anyway is that those replacing those who leave are just evil too.

If you work at one of these companies or buy their products and you literally think they are evil you are either lying to yourself, or actively being complicit in their evil actions. There's just no way around that.

Take personal responsibility. Make tough decisions. Stop abstracting your problems away.

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by Retric on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @04:49PM (#42939339)
If your defense is trying to argue about what’s evil, you’ve already lost.

Putting money before other considerations is what’s evil. What’s “possible” expands based on your morality it doesn’t contract. If being polite makes a sale you’re going to find a lot of polite sales people, but how much are they willing to push that expended warrantee?

> Sorry I'd be less evil but if I gave up my position as an evil henchman someone else would do it!

I’ve constrained what I’m willing to do and who I’m willing to work for based on my morality, have you? And if not, consider what that say about you…

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by ericmay on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @05:08PM (#42939644)
> Putting money before other considerations is what’s evil.

Depends on the considerations and what you consider to be evil. My point wasn't to argue about what's evil, of course there is probably a few hundred years of philosophy to overcome in that discussion, but to point out that if you truly think an organization is evil it's not useful to only care about the legal fiction or the CEO or the board that you won't have any impact on - you have to blame the workers who make the evil possible too, and stop using the products. Otherwise you're just deceiving yourself into feeling like you are doing something.

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by Retric on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @05:09PM (#42939670)
Again, you say that as if I am using the products of companies I consider evil.

The fact you assume people are going to do things they believe to be morally reprehensible is troubling to me.

I don’t assume people need to be evil to work at such companies because I don’t assume they notice the same things I do.

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by ericmay on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @05:12PM (#42939705)
I was writing about the general case. I apologize if that wasn't clear from the start. I don't know anything about you personally though I'm sure we'd have some great conversations over a glass of wine (or coffee or whatever :) )!

> The fact you assume people are going to do things they believe to be morally reprehensible is troubling to me.

This seems to be very common behavior in my experience. Perhaps the rhetoric doesn't match the true beliefs. I'm not sure.

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by Retric on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @05:15PM (#42939747)
Ahh ok, sorry for misunderstanding you.
Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by ericmay on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @05:16PM (#42939757)
It's my fault. Sometimes I'm not very clear.
Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by robertlagrant on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @07:14AM (#42947419)
> I’ve constrained what I’m willing to do and who I’m willing to work for based on my morality, have you? And if not, consider what that say about you…

This sort of discussion gets a bit tricky because it often turns out one person is not having a discussion; they're trying to advertise something about themselves.

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by Retric on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @07:18PM (#42957332)
I’m not really judging other people here. I remember working on a project and realizing I was one of those cogs keeping ICBM’s operating and it really just hit home.

Not thinking anything about who you’re working for is just kind of the default. However, IMO if you do feel something is wrong then that’s when the obligation to carry through comes in.

Re:Google Drops Pledge Not to Use AI for Weapons or Surveill... by robertlagrant on Thursday February 06, 2025 @04:14AM (#42960553)
I don't think it's the default. Lots of people think about what they do, in my experience. If you think ICBMs are purely bad, fair enough, but I imagine lots of people believe they - particularly when not fired - perform a vital defensive service, and are worth working on for that reason.