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Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by eesmith on Monday January 13, 2025 @08:17AM (#42683099)
DEI is focused on the identify insofar as that identity has been the basis of discrimination preventing equality on the basis of abilities, skills, etc.

> they signals it's the reason they got hired to this position

That does not follow. When an organization communicates that Obama was the first US president born in Hawaii, that does not signal that he was elected because he was from Hawaii.

The local paper had a short article last year that for the first time the entire crew of three people on a truck were women. The article added that the scheduling was happenstance, and not deliberately done.

A couple of years ago, Teri Eidson and her daughter, Nicole McAllister made the news because they were the first mother-daughter team to co-pilot an international flight.

Neither of these should be interpreted to mean that those women were hired specifically to get that reported result.

Sergei Volkov was the first second-generation cosmonaut, that is, his father was the cosmonaut Aleksandr Volkov.

When that made the news, did it also signal that the son got the position not due to abilities, skills, etc., but because of his father?

And so on, and so on, and so on.

It also does not follow because you have to know if there are complicating factors.

For example, if other cities discriminate against LGBT department heads while LA does not, then the population of qualified potential department heads would be higher for LA than other cities.

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by franktankbank on Monday January 13, 2025 @10:52AM (#42684773)
I see the whole thing as a triangle:

nepotism on one point

dei on another point

and meritocracy on the third

Each presents different ways to make selection and each has intrinsic biases which are in tension with one another. Neither one can be the end all be all solution because each leads to unhealthy endpoints if carried on for long enough. I suspect Sergei Volkov did in fact benefit from nepotism but maybe that's not a bad thing on its own?

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by eesmith on Monday January 13, 2025 @11:28AM (#42685213)
Where is discrimination on that triangle?

If discrimination is on that triangle, where do you place efforts to counter discrimination?

You suspect because it fits with your worldview, or you suspect because of your knowledge of the cosmonaut program, and their willingness to have less-than-the-best in what is otherwise a very competitive field?

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by franktankbank on Monday January 13, 2025 @11:34AM (#42685292)
What kind of discrimination isn't covered by motives of nepotism or DEI?

To be clear I think its not necessarily bad, its the dose. The Cosmonaut had proven genetics, that counts for something on top of meritocracy.

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by eesmith on Monday January 13, 2025 @01:13PM (#42686486)
Do you consider slavery, the Trail of Tears, the internment of Japanese-Americans, and the restrictions on women from serving in combat or some juries as discrimination?

In many states, it is okay to discriminate based on political views. Here's an example of a socialist working at Goodwill who was fired for being a socialist - https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2002/07/can-your-boss-fi... with the quote: β€œThe law is pretty clear that a private employer can fire someone based on their political speech even when that political speech does not affect the terms and conditions of employment.”

Is that form of discrimination either DEI or nepotism?

Some US veterans get preferential employment in the Postal Service.

Is that form of discrimination DEI or nepotism?

The Freedmen's Bureau assisted only former slaves. Was that discrimination? Was it DEI?

Japanese-Americans who were interned or their heirs received payment as reparations. Was that discrimination? Was it DEI?

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by franktankbank on Monday January 13, 2025 @02:07PM (#42687308)
Feel like we are talking past each other honestly. I don't think its worthwhile to label something discrimination without a clear motive behind it.

Nepotism == My tribe > other tribe

DEI == Diversity > mono-culture

Meritocracy == job skills > political skills

Note there is no prescribed method how you balance those forces for "peak results" because there is no generic "peak result". Maybe I should have stated Meritocracy is also a form of discrimination but one where its "common-sense" standard. Restrictions on foreign influence in war time would be meritocracy and nepotism at the expense of DEI for example. Can you see any use in the above definitions or would you add another point to the tension graph? Or is there no use in considering these in tension with one another?

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by eesmith on Monday January 13, 2025 @03:13PM (#42688437)
These are far from the actual definitions of those words, to the point were I have trouble making sense of it.

Like, the history of racism in the Americas recognizes a lot of different cultures, and even puts a hierarchy to them, typically with Blacks and Native Americans at the bottom, along with terms like mestizo and quadroon to describe different combinations of intermixing. A lighter-skinned Black slave is more likely to work in the house, while a darker-skinned one works the fields. A "swarthy" Italian might be white according to the law, but of lower social standing than other whites.

Let's suppose I had a mestiza mistress, a mulatto manservant, a dozen black fieldworkers, and a Chinese wash woman, and a white wife, all under a white supremacist patriarchy.

Sounds pretty diverse, yes? It certainly is not mono-culture. Does that diversity make it part of DEI?

While if we use the definition at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusi...

"Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) are organizational frameworks which seek to promote the fair treatment and full participation of all people, particularly groups who have historically been underrepresented or subject to discrimination on the basis of identity or disability."

we can see that the mistress, wife, etc. are not able to engage in full participation like I am.

I therefore conclude that DEI is not simply the idea that 'diversity > mono-culture'.

Is there any definition you would use for "my tribe == other tribe"?

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by eesmith on Monday January 13, 2025 @05:35PM (#42690436)
You asked "What kind of discrimination isn't covered by motives of nepotism or DEI?"

One of my examples was how women couldn't be in combat roles until recently.

Is that 'Nepotism'? No, not unless you have a very strange definition of "tribe" such that men and women are in different tribes.

Is that 'DEI'? No, not unless you have a very strange definition of culture such that men and women are in different cultures.

In both of those strange definitions, where do you stop? How does the tribe of "American" overlap with the tribe of "woman" overlap with the tribe of "State U. graduate" overlap with the culture of "Southern" overlap with the culture of "menopausal" overlap with the culture of "home owner", and so on.

And to be clear, discrimination is not always bad. We have bona fide occupational qualifications, like how a church can discriminate on the basis of religion, and a strip club is not required to accept male strippers. We have age restrictions, like how the president must be at least 35 years old. We can fire people with excessively foul body order, even if they have the right job skills.

So when you ask "What kind of discrimination isn't covered by motives of nepotism or DEI?", the range is quite large.

Re:Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity... by franktankbank on Monday January 13, 2025 @11:00PM (#42693442)
In my last response I admitted Meritocracy is a form of discrimination (often an acceptable one).