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Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by maxglute on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @02:15AM (#42557075)
PRC subsidy is like $2000 per car and decreasing, substantially lower than US domestic subsidies per vehicle. They're also selling for 2x PRC MSRP abroad, i.e. Euro EVs like 15000-20000 more expensive. Explicitly to avoid dumping and to make up thin margins in competitive domestic market. They don't need to dump to be competitive, reality is western automobile industries currently can't remotely compete, hence tariffs to buy time until they can, or forever because they simply can't.
Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by nextworddev on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @03:06AM (#42557278)
say your figure is correct. now also tally the subsidies on all of bill of materials as well as favorable loan terms.
Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by Arnt on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @03:17AM (#42557320)
I think you're saying that if Ford buys cheap and good batteries from CATL that's fair, but if BYD does that's a hidden subsidy. Right?
Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by nextworddev on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @03:22AM (#42557337)
You are assuming that Ford and BYD pays same prices, but are you sure about that?
Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by Arnt on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @07:47AM (#42558383)
I consider it very likely.

I shared office with an enterprise salesman for a year. We talked over lunch. Among the things he said: If you want to sell to someone in the long run, then be honest with them. Don't give their competitors better prices and lie about it. It's okay to tell someone that their competitors get better pricing because of volume or for other understandable reasons, but lying is not okay, because people will find out eventually and then your long-term relationship goes sour.

CATL clearly wants to be a really big battery vendor and sell to lots of battery purchasers. I consider it very likely that they treat Ford well.

Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by tooltalk on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @09:25PM (#42563499)
Not sure if that's the best way to describe China's business model/practice. WRT, EV batteries in particular[1]:

  ... China requires auto makers to use batteries from one of its approved suppliers if they want to be cleared to mass-produce electric cars and plug-in hybrids and to qualify for subsidies. These suppliers are all Chinese, so such global leaders as South Korea’s LG Chem Ltd and Japan’s Panasonic Corp. are excluded.

  ... Foreign batteries aren’t officially banned in China, but auto executives say that since 2016 they have been warned by government officials that they must use Chinese batteries in their China-built cars, or face repercussions.  That has forced them to spend millions of dollars to redesign cars to work with inferior Chinese batteries, they say.

  ... “We want to comply, and we have to comply,” said one executive with a foreign car maker. “There’s no other option.”
1. Power Play: How China-Owned Volvo Avoids Beijing’s Battery Rules Car maker is allowed to use high-end foreign technology, while rivals are squeezed into buying local, Trefor Moss, May 17, 2018, the Wall Street Journal

I don't know any specifics of Ford and CATL, but it was always the Chinese gov't driving their growth either by protectionism or undercutting foreign competitors with subsidies which is why Chinese EVs are being pushed back by the trade regulators in EU/US/Turkiye/France/etc..

I have no reason to believe that it was motivated China's altruism to pass the best price to their American customers.

Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by maxglute on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @03:22AM (#42557335)
For 1000kg of steel, bulk of raw input materials, we're looking at ~$500 price difference, i.e. negligible. If you want BOM for other materials, lazy napkin math: PRC auto is ~10% of gdp. PRC industrial subsidies ~2% of GDP. Even if you assume entire industrial subsidy goes towards auto, that still puts it at ~20% of industry. Can western manufacturers compete if PRC cars was ~20% more expensive. Can they compete if BYD seagull was was $12000, vs it selling for $20000 abroad. No. That's without considering west subsidizes the shit out of their auto, and downstream sectors, i.e. US energy.
Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by codedokode on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @06:42AM (#42558130)
I read you can somehow buy cheap version of car for internal market and hack it to allow operating outside China (and to translate UI text from Chinese to Russian). At least there are people offering hacking/localizing services. No need to pay more!
Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by tooltalk on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @09:21PM (#42563486)
Not sure where you are getting the subsidy figure. China's EV subsidies have been around since 2009, extended and renewed every 2-4 years. The last consumer "direct purchase subsidies" ended in Dec, 2022, but was extended as tax credit for another 4 years for an estimate cost of $72+B in June of 2023. That's in addition to China's provisional ICE-to-EV conversion subsidy of ~20,000 yuan to prop up slowing EV sales, started in May, 2024 and ends December 31 2024, today.

China's cost competitiveness comes from China's protectionism and subsidies past decade. The EU Commission has already conducted an antisubsidy investigation against Chinese EV imports and imposed countervailing measures earlier this year (see EU's Implementation of Regulation 2024/1866) based on prohibited export subsidies given to Chinese EV makers (or MIC EVs).

Re:BYD is automaker with the most R&D staff in the world by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday January 02, 2025 @02:27PM (#42577810)
> The EU Commission has already conducted an antisubsidy investigation against Chinese EV imports and imposed countervailing measures earlier this year

The outcome of that investigation was predetermined.

The French government began pushing for tariffs. The Germans opposed the idea, but France turned out to have more political support on this issue. The EU needs a technical justification for tariffs, so the Commission launched an investigation. That investigation came to the conclusion it needed to in order to justify the policy that had already been decided on at the political level.

The conclusions of the report are petty ridiculous. China has a much more competitive EV market than the EU does, and Chinese manufacturers are much lower cost as a consequence. When Chinese companies export EVs to Europe, they sell them at a very substantial markup, which is the exact opposite of dumping.

The types of subsidies the EU is complaining about are the exact same types of subsidies that EU countries themselves (and US states) give. They're things like government funding for charging infrastructure and sales-tax exemptions.