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Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by dantheman on Thursday January 08, 2009 @07:22AM (#424802)
libertarians only acknowledge negative rights; you can't do X to me. There is no such thing as a positive right; you must give X to me.
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by yummyfajitas on Thursday January 08, 2009 @07:57AM (#424827)
Some (such as myself) also believe it legitimate for the government to provide public goods: goods which are nonrivalrous and nonexcludible.

Protection from contagious disease falls into this category, for instance.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by thomasmallen on Thursday January 08, 2009 @09:26AM (#424918)
That's where I stand. I want a small government, and I think it's crazy that a government as hulking as ours doesn't provide something as essential as healthcare. On the other hand, I'm against social security and think that a general welfare system will do fine to take care of poor people, young or old.
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by KirinDave on Thursday January 08, 2009 @11:37AM (#425132)
It's unfortunate that the desire for an efficient government has been tied into the desire for "small government" and libertarianism.

An efficient government is a laudable thing that everyone should want, and so cutting away the fat is a natural thing to do in any sort of political light.

I don't know why libertarians at large seem to claim ownership of this notion.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by Prrometheus on Thursday January 08, 2009 @01:03PM (#425289)
The revolution of Public Choice economics was to examine the incentives faced by actors in the public sector, instead of viewing public policy as exogenous to the economy as previous models have done.

In the past, if economists discovered an inefficiency in the market, they would say "and the government should correct this inefficiency with policy X". Public choice economists don't ask if governments should do X, but rather will they do X.

It turns out the incentives facing government actors aren't very good. They have much fewer incentives to act efficiently than market actors. It is possible to have competent officials at the head of a small bureaucracy produce good results. However, I doubt this is possible for the United States, which owns the largest bureaucracy in the world.

So, there are real reasons for limiting the scope of government.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by stcredzero on Thursday January 08, 2009 @11:44AM (#425145)
A part of the reason may be that lots of people make their living off this "fat."
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by walterk on Thursday January 08, 2009 @12:29PM (#425219)
Hence, we need to change up our notion of government as fixed institution to government as agile organization.
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by thomasmallen on Thursday January 08, 2009 @02:01PM (#425422)
And other nations would be licking their chops.
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by walterk on Thursday January 08, 2009 @02:37PM (#425486)
Not sure what you mean by this? I wasn't advocating anarchism. I'm simply saying we need to think of (and implement) government as an agile entity, one that dynamically allocates resources as necessary rather than suffers from "institution creep".
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by jazzyb on Thursday January 08, 2009 @07:25PM (#425932)
Then I think what you are looking for is very small government -- as in everyone is at least an acquaintance of their leader(s). When everyone knows everyone else in a system, they are able to provide for one another because they personally know what everyone needs and can react quickly without going through seven layers of bureaucracy. When the government's reach grows so large that they don't know their citizens, then they have to rely on formalized metrics and laws to determine how resources should be allocated, and it is that sort of overhead which causes the inefficiency that you speak of. This effect is similar to companies: When they first start out, they are agile and able to outpace their competitors in the market, but once they get too big, they cease to innovate and have a hard time meeting the demands of changes in the market.
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by walterk on Thursday January 08, 2009 @07:33PM (#425940)
Good point, although I think G2C tech can substantially improve communications between citizens and government leaders. This is assuming there's a strong initiative to adopt such tech across the board, and that it's competently designed.

There are plenty of good people working in the civic media area, so there's a good talent pool to draw from.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by cturner on Thursday January 08, 2009 @07:55PM (#425965)
Food is pretty essential. Why don't you get the government to provide that too? And water? What about work? People need work - it's a human right! Why stop there? Head on up Maslows. Why shouldn't all people reach the top of Maslow's hierarchy. And if they should - well then surely it's the role of their fellow man to facilitate it through the efficient, modest and even-handed institution of government!
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by opticksversi on Thursday January 08, 2009 @08:01PM (#425969)
Food is pretty essential. Why don't you get the government to provide that too?

Done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_Sta...

The subsidy programs give farmers extra money for their crops, as well as guarantee a price floor. For instance in the 2002 Farm Bill, for every bushel of wheat sold farmers were paid an extra 52 cents and guaranteed a price of 3.86 from 2002–03 and 3.92 from 2004–2007.[2] That is, if the price of wheat in 2002 was 3.80 farmers would get an extra 58 cents per bushel (52 cents plus the $0.06 price difference).

.

Also, please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIC_Program

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Nutrition_Service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_Stamp

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by steveplace on Thursday January 08, 2009 @08:57AM (#424885)
And that's being known as a "practical libertarian"
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by olefoo on Thursday January 08, 2009 @12:16PM (#425194)
No, it's known as being a socialist.

//not that there's anything wrong with that.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by yummyfajitas on Thursday January 08, 2009 @12:31PM (#425223)
This is probably the first time since adulthood that I've ever been called a socialist (I was a socialist for a short time during my teenage years).
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by steveplace on Thursday January 08, 2009 @12:50PM (#425265)
I'd actually like to define it as extreme moderatism.
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by william42 on Friday January 09, 2009 @05:53AM (#426456)
Actually it's being known as "having taken econ 101".
Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by likpok on Thursday January 08, 2009 @09:31AM (#424924)
Or, you could argue that the government should be limited to market failures.

Roads, defense, control, vaccines... all have significant effects outside of the markets, and thus their price does not reflect the benefit to society.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by anewaccountname on Thursday January 08, 2009 @10:39PM (#426134)
>Roads, defense, control, vaccines...

Where do you stop? Surely you'd have to include financial companies? A financial company that makes up 10% of the financial market will calculate a phony 90% discount on any systemic risk it creates: after all, if the system fails, only 10% of that failure will be realized as a loss.

Re:The Two Flaws Of Libertarian Economics by anewaccountname on Thursday January 08, 2009 @10:31PM (#426126)
Huh? How do initial property rights get started then?