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Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by kvmet on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @04:46PM (#42381941)
Phonics certainly doesn't _feel_ like the best way to teach English, but hopefully we now have enough data to show that it is at least acceptable. A big factor too is "can it be taught at scale". You don't only have to teach the students, you have to teach the teachers how to teach the new methods. Much like NCLB, these changes are well-meaning but we really need to stop rolling things out nationally only to find out they harm outcomes.
Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by zozbot234 on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @05:38PM (#42382435)
> Phonics certainly doesn't _feel_ like the best way to teach English

Phonics is not about "teaching English" in some fuzzy generic sense, it's specifically aimed towards teaching English written orthography, starting from its phonetics. I.e. teaching fluent speakers of English to read.

Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by anon291 on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @05:39PM (#42382440)
Why doesn't phonics _feel_ like the best way to teach English? This is a minority opinion I would think.
Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by lkbm on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @07:29PM (#42383319)
Probably because English is so very non-phonetic. To repeat an ancient joke, "Hookt awn fonix werkt fer mee".

I could also see it resulting in more subvocalization, but my assumption is that subvocalization is actually a very important short-term strategy that almost always goes away quickly.

Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by Clamchop on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @09:13PM (#42383983)
It'd be super cool if English orthography were allowed to keep up with the times, but we've never been more anal about spelling than we are right now, lol.
Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by liontwist on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @09:23PM (#42384046)
Those are the non-English words mixed in.

Individual letters don’t have sounds, but trigrams do.

Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by lkbm on Thursday December 12, 2024 @09:55PM (#42405588)
Given that that's something like half of our lexicon, you're going to have a heck of a time reading if you can't process any of them, but okay, let's look just at words that come from Old English:

food, good

rough, dough

two, to, too

Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by anon291 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @12:22AM (#42385033)
I mean, that was easily read.

If you go read old documents, you'll note they spelled English much more phonetically .

It's a fairly modern thing to use these standardized spellings

English is fairly phonetic. There's a few options for each phoneme and a few common words, but the vast majority follow obvious phonetic structures.

Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by lkbm on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:01PM (#42405608)
Yes, of course it was easy to read. It was spelled phonetically. That's the point.

Calling English "fairly phonetic" is laughable. In most languages, they don't have spelling bees because they don't understand the concept. How would you not know how to spell the word after someone speaks it?

Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by ajuc on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:33AM (#42386800)
I'd like to see how much time kids waste learning reading/writing in countries with non-phonetic languages compared to sane languages.
Re:U.S. math scores drop on major international test by lkbm on Thursday December 12, 2024 @09:58PM (#42405599)
My understanding (mostly from my speech pathologist brother ranting about this) is that we end up with reading/writing tending to lag about two years behind due to it.