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Re:Every UUID Dot Com by kibwen on Friday December 06, 2024 @02:27PM (#42343308)
This is the biggest hack since every ATM PIN was leaked: https://pastebin.com/SmJRB8eQ
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by quietbritishjim on Friday December 06, 2024 @02:44PM (#42343516)
PINs can be up to 6 digits (at least here in the UK, but I doubt it's country specific), even though the ones they give you by default are only ever 4. So that's only a leak of 1% of them.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by tomtomtom777 on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:12PM (#42344501)
It helps, but only temporary. I wouldn't be surprised if all 6 digit PINs will be leaked within a few decades.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by banku_brougham on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:45PM (#42344838)
No with the rate of development of quantum computers that estimate is down to the next few years.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by sltkr on Saturday December 07, 2024 @01:52PM (#42351866)
Not to worry. We'll just switch to 8 digit PINs and we'll be safe once and for all.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by extraduder_ire on Friday December 06, 2024 @02:52PM (#42343608)
Does that not cause problems on some card machines? I've come across a few that definitely don't let you put in more than four digits.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by jiggawatts on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:42PM (#42344806)
That provides very valuable information: DO NOT TRUST this machine to be secure!

Similarly, any web site or app that can’t correctly handle a space character at the end of the password should never be trusted with anything of consequence.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by quietbritishjim on Friday December 06, 2024 @05:49PM (#42345429)
Are you really worried that a card machine is going to leak your PIN? That doesn't seem to be a common attack vector compared to a third-party skimmer being attached or someone just mugging you and demanding your PIN under threat of physical violence.

To answer the actual question: I don't know because I left my PIN at 4 digits, despite knowing I could use more, precisely because I didn't think it would really make my life any more secure.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by jiggawatts on Friday December 06, 2024 @08:46PM (#42346547)
I'm not worried specifically about the PIN leaking.

The concern is that a 4-digit max PIN length is certainly implemented by someone who couldn't be bothered to read the spec for secure credit card transaction handling.

It's the equivalent of the "No brown M&Ms" clause or "Canary in the coal mine" test.

Nobody actually cares about the M&M color or some dumb bird.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lxgr on Friday December 06, 2024 @09:18PM (#42346723)
"Must support 6-digit PINs" is not part of "the spec for secure credit card transaction handling" – which is also not a (or at least one) thing: There are dozens of card networks, and many of them have tons of regional variations.

In some markets, issuers only allow 4 digit PINs, and customers don't expect to have to press an "enter" key when they're done entering their 4 digit PIN – so the reasonable implementation is to allow only 4 digit PINs, or you'll be left with people staring at the ATM/POS terminal, waiting for something to happen.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by jiggawatts on Saturday December 07, 2024 @12:51AM (#42347592)
4 is the minimum number of digits required, but there are over a dozen different PIN block standards, and most allow between 4..9 and 4..16 digits: https://www.eftlab.com/knowledge-base/complete-list-of-pin-b...

Making an ATM that can accept cards from multiple issuers (which is the norm these days) and allowing only 4 digits is the same category of error as requiring that the first character of someone's last name start with a capital letter, or to block symbol characters in names.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by alexvitkov on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:13AM (#42348132)
> or to block symbol characters in names.

People tend to very very quickly their mind on that one once they get a few right-to-left control characters that flip over the text layout of the entire program.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by jiggawatts on Saturday December 07, 2024 @07:22AM (#42349313)
"We'll just not do business with anyone named O'Neill, that's just a made-up name designed to trick the database with SQL injection."

Also: https://www.ancestry.com.au/name-origin?surname=null

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lxgr on Saturday December 07, 2024 @10:35AM (#42350416)
Are you arguing to just allow any byte in names (which are ultimately user-defined input data), including 0x00, Unicode byte order markers etc., in a thread about a perceived correlation between developers' lack of i18n awareness and security bugs no less?

The reality is that there is often a tradeoff between keeping your test and edge cases simple via constraining allowable inputs and internationalization.

So I think you've got it exactly the wrong way around: These limitations might have happened precisely because somebody wanted to do the right thing from a safety/security perspective by doing overly strict input validation, at the expense of internationalization/compatibility.

Not saying that that's a good tradeoff in every case, but I really don't think you can draw any conclusions about a system's security by looking at whether it arbitrarily disallows some inputs (or if anything, maybe the opposite).

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lxgr on Saturday December 07, 2024 @10:28AM (#42350388)
I agree: An annoying/avoidable implementation shortcoming, but arguably relatively orthogonal to security.

> there are over a dozen different PIN block standards

You almost certainly don't need to support all of these inside the PIN pad or even ATM/POS. If necessary, translation can happen in other parts of the system.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by quietbritishjim on Saturday December 07, 2024 @02:46AM (#42348011)
Ok, but that doesn't answer my question: what specific problem are you worried about that would allow someone to steal your money, that isn't incomparably unlikely compared to other methods? I'm just not aware of any problem that has happened in practice from poorly written card reader software.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lxgr on Friday December 06, 2024 @09:13PM (#42346690)
Why? PINs are limited to 4 digits in many markets, so it's not exactly extreme for a developer to not consider the (to them) edge case of 6 digit PINs on foreign cards.

Conversely, it seems very possible to support 6 digit PINs and yet still make a ton of horrible implementation mistakes, security and otherwise.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lobsterthief on Saturday December 07, 2024 @01:13AM (#42347654)
Why is the space thing inherently insecure? I’m thinking bad form validation could trip it up and be considered “not handled” vs concerns suggesting plaintext storage
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lxgr on Friday December 06, 2024 @09:11PM (#42346685)
It most certainly does.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by hakfoo on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:19PM (#42346970)
For some reason, a lot of credit card processing APIs are still oriented around physical card machines, so they have a lot of fields devoted to self-declaration of the available features.

Some of the APIs allow the machine to say "I can accept a PIN up to 12 digits".

However, I don't know if anyone 1) actually delivered on it and 2) how you'd know in advance just poking random devices in stores.

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by sltkr on Saturday December 07, 2024 @01:55PM (#42351893)
Surprisingly, no, or at least it's not common.

I'm from a country that has 6-digit PINs on most cards, and I've traveled to e.g. the United States where people are surprised that credit card PINs can be more than 4 digits, but in my experience, terminals accept them just fine. It seems like they are designed to suggest a PIN is only 4 digits but they will happily accept more. So while you're entering your PIN, the display looks something like:

    [....]
    
    [*...]
    
    [**..]
    
    [***.]
    
    [****]
    
    [*****]
    
    [******]
And then you hit OK and the PIN is accepted.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by bookstore-romeo on Friday December 06, 2024 @05:54PM (#42345462)
My card doesn't even let me include repeating digits in its PIN. I suppose it can make a one-off guess more likely than one in a thousand to correctly guess my PIN.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lenocinor on Friday December 06, 2024 @06:08PM (#42345575)
Is it repeating in the whole PIN, or in digits next to each other? I'm trying to resist the nerd snipe of what the total number of possibilities would be in the latter case...
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by squarehead11 on Friday December 06, 2024 @07:23PM (#42346077)
I believe it would be 7290, or more generalized, S(N) = 10 * 9 ^(N-1) with N being the length of the code and S being the number of combinations (assuming that a decimal system is used)

And from there, with variable lengths ranging from L to H, S(L, H) = 5/4 * 9 ^(L-1) * (9^(U-L+1) - 1)

So if the bank allows combinations from 4 - 6 digits, there would be a total of 663390 combinations to choose from.

Now, of course, the bank may decide to go from decimal to hexadecimal in the future - or maybe, there systems allow only duodecimal. In any case, the formula can be generalized further to account for all number systems - with B being the base of the system:

S(L, H, B) = (B/(B-2)) * (B-1) ^(L-1) * ((B-1)^(U-L+1) - 1)

This is only defined for B > 2 - in binary system, there's only ever two combinations which fit the constraint

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by lxgr on Friday December 06, 2024 @09:20PM (#42346735)
Which is honestly not a bad idea, given that somebody shoulder surfing or trying to read smudges on the PIN pad becomes much easier in the case of repeated numbers.

"1111" would just leave a fingerprint on a single key, for example, and only one possible PIN (or maybe 3, if the bank/card allows 6 digit PINs).

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by tombert on Friday December 06, 2024 @02:33PM (#42343381)
Holy shit, my PIN is on there. How the hell did that get that?? I was told it was a 1/10,000 chance of someone guessing it.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by ethanjstark on Friday December 06, 2024 @03:35PM (#42344116)
Mine too.

Takes me back to when my password was leaked:

https://github.com/danielmiessler/SecLists/pull/155

Re:Every UUID Dot Com by 0xbadcafebee on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:01PM (#42344390)
could we fix this by adding '\n' to the password? then it wouldn't be guessed, the hackers would just think it was the end of the password
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by Y_Y on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:31PM (#42344682)
That's why I put a newline in my username.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by hk1337 on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:52PM (#42344909)
Don't worry, I already checked your account and there wasn't anything there to take.
Re:Every UUID Dot Com by hamburglar on Friday December 06, 2024 @04:52PM (#42344912)
Haha, I have a file in my home directory that has every possible SSN because I wanted to be able to tell a friend “I have your SSN in a file on my computer.”