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Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by didibus on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @01:47AM (#42314997)
I'm never able to get to the "so what?" with these. Productivity growth sounds nice, but then it mentions that there's more inequality, higher cost of living, and more workers struggle in the US than other developed countries. How do I reconcile this?

They make a point that eventually the other countries' economies would shrink and won't be able to afford those benefits, but also the US doesn't have those benefits even now.

Anyone can elucidate me?

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:23AM (#42315199)
> How do I reconcile this?

I'm curious why you care that some people have more money than you do? If you want mo' moolah:

1. upgrade your job skills

2. minimize spending (like get a roommate, eschew restaurant food, buy a used car)

3. invest the money you save

If you really want to make big money:

1. start your own business

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by didibus on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:31AM (#42315246)
Not sure I understand how you're reconciliating it? Maybe I'm missing the link you are making with caring or not about other people being richer than oneself, how is that relevant here?

What I'm asking is more, what conclusion should I take from the article?

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:58AM (#42315401)
Isn't caring about inequality mean complaining about people having more money than oneself?
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by Jensson on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:05AM (#42315429)
The issue is when others money means high costs for you, such as in healthcare or education or construction. A lot of stuff is really expensive in USA due to the high wages/profits and those workers not being any more productive, that directly hurts your quality of life unless you got an equivalent raise.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:31AM (#42315568)
You mentioned healthcare, education, and construction. Those three all have very heavy government interference and regulation. It's unrealistic to blame those high prices on the free market.

Consider, on the other hand, the software industry. Essentially zero regulation. Yet the software, very high quality software, tends to be free!!!

Why is it that the most regulated, subsidized, and interfered with industries are the most expensive, while the least regulated, unsubsidized, free market industries are the most productive with the lowest prices?

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by Jensson on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:37AM (#42315602)
> It's unrealistic to blame those high prices on the free market.

I didn't blame the free market, we talked about inequality nobody mentioned free market. That inequality is partially fueled by the unfree regulatory capture, things would be more equal if some regulations were removed.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:39PM (#42324699)
Musk's wealth did not come about through regulatory capture. Neither did Amazon's, Microsoft's, Google's, etc.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by tmnvix on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:17PM (#42320943)
Sometimes it's just about inequality. Believe it or not, a lot of us don't like to see those around us go without.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:24PM (#42321019)
You're free to help others as much as you like. Those who do have my respect. Those who want to tear down others do not.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by tmnvix on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:27PM (#42321058)
I agree. Though I would just add that I don't consider removing unfair advantages to be tearing others down.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:38PM (#42324690)
Life is not fair and cannot be made fair. However, living in the US means the opportunity for you is there. It's up to you.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by meiraleal on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:26PM (#42321677)
No, it mean complaining about people having too much and people having too little. It might sound strange for you, but lots of people discuss economics/politics for a greater social good, not their own personal interest.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:40PM (#42324709)
> It might sound strange for you

Wow, you sure misunderstand me. Free markets result in the greater good. Socialism does not. Hence, I prefer free markets.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by didibus on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @11:43PM (#42325046)
I think you got hung up on that specific. The bigger issue is that the US has a higher cost of living, and more workers struggle compared to other developed countries.

This is why I find the article confusing. At first, it paints a picture of the US as incredibly productive, which should mean that the average citizen's quality of life, and maybe even up to the 99th percentile, would be better than in other developed countries. But then it claims that the average quality of life in the US is actually worse (as in struggling workers and high cost of living).

So, I’m left wondering... Why do we care so much about the country’s productivity if it doesn’t improve the average person’s life? In fact, if it’s making things worse for the majority, what’s the point?

The only way I can make sense of this is by looking at the distribution of gains. The graph that would explain this would have extreme outliers at the very top, where all the productivity gains are concentrated. This isn’t just inequality in the typical sense of some people having more than others. It’s an extreme form of inequality where almost all the benefits go to the tail end, leaving the majority worse off despite the country’s overall productivity.

At least, that’s the only explanation that makes sense to me. But at the same time, I don't just believe this, that's why I'm failing to reconcile the contradiction in the article. What's the conclusion you take from the article?

P.S.: I don’t mind other people being richer than me as long as it’s mutually beneficial, or if their wealth has no impact on me, good or bad. Most people likely feel the same. The problem arises when someone’s wealth comes at the expense of others. For example, Kings and Emperors in the past were resented because their wealth and power actively held others back and were built off the labor of the masses. On the other hand, I don’t mind someone like Bill Gates being wealthy because his success indirectly benefited me, I have a comfortable job in part because of the industry he helped create.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by adamc on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:40AM (#42315290)
I thought the question was "why should I care about productivity if it doesn't necessarily make my life better?". The article didn't really make the case that average workers were benefiting from this.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:00AM (#42315405)
The Law of Supply and Demand means that worker total compensation tends to track their productivity.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by Jensson on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:15AM (#42315471)
Would you say that construction is way more productive today in USA than 40 years ago? It seems like stuff are more expensive and less productive at the same time today.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:26AM (#42315546)
If you've ever tried to build a house in the US, you'll find out where the money goes. I have, and there's good reason why I am not in the construction business.

Oh, and check this out:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/developer-martin-selig...

That's gotta hurt!

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by Jensson on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:41AM (#42315623)
So you agree USA has problems? That is the point, the source of that inequality doesn't matter the inequality is still hurting you. There are seemingly less such problems in Europe.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:48AM (#42315659)
Of course the USA has problems. I've pointed out several.

But inequality is not a problem. People wanting to make it big come to the USA. That's why the USA has the biggest, most successful, companies that drive the US gdp forward.

Inequality is only a problem for people who are envious.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by Jensson on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @04:01AM (#42315717)
Healthcare using regulations to block competition and line their pockets is a big source to that inequality, being forced to pay into that isn't envy.

But I get your point, inequality isn't a problem in itself, but seeing your money go to rich people for no good reason does feel very bad even if the problem is the corruption and not the inequality.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:14PM (#42320909)
Healthcare problems are nearly all caused by heavy government involvement in every facet of it.

> seeing your money go to rich people for no good reason

Anyone can buy stocks and get their share. For example, NVDA. If you'd bought some, you'd have made quite a lot of bank, and made your friends unhappy with you because of the money you unfairly made for no good reason.

I know many ordinary schlubs who became multimillionaires by simply buying NVDA, MSFT, AMZN, AAPL, etc.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by piva00 on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:22AM (#42316134)
> Inequality is only a problem for people who are envious.

Or when you have to pass by homeless tent cities in your downtown. Or when you are the victim of crime because the kid pulling a gun on you is envious because their family is poor and you're rich.

Extreme inequality brings social strife in multiple layers, if you're individualistic you might not care for it but for a society it fosters resentment and erosion of social cohesion.

But I don't think you care about that in general.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:21PM (#42320998)
> Extreme inequality brings social strife in multiple layers

This is the conventional wisdom, but I can't think of a revolt in a free market country.

> But I don't think you care about that in general.

My reading of history is that free markets bring the greatest prosperity to the greatest number of people. No other economic system comes close.

Cutting other people down to size because you're envious just makes things worse. It produces economic stagnation, and the demand for "equity" is endless and endlessly makes things worse.

It doesn't end well.

Be careful what you wish for.

Keep in mind that the most prosperous companies are in America and bring that prosperity to Americans and are the envy of the world.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by no_exit on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @04:26PM (#42322209)
> I can't think of a revolt in a free market country.

Lmao

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by rqtwteye on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:30PM (#42321085)
Inequality is big problem. If you have a certain percentage of people with way more money than others, they skew markets to cater to them. You see this in real estate where new builds are mostly towards the higher end. You see this with cars where manufacturers are cutting the lower end models. You see it in health care where the only available options are the expensive ones.

This works well for companies because they can get higher margins. This works well for the people with money but other people are being left out. And with increasing inequality the number of people left out goes up.

Basically we are creating a world designed for the top x percent of people. And they are creating laws that favor themselves.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Friday December 06, 2024 @01:04AM (#42336857)
You cannot make it big in the auto business by targeting the 1%. Ferrari has never been a big company, and often teetered on bankruptcy.

The big money is targeting where the customers are - the middle class. That's why VW got so big. Why Ford and GM and Chrysler made so much money. Selling cars to the middle class. Tesla has also moved down market for the same reason.

How's Rolls Royce, Bentley, and Jaguar doing? Case closed.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by ossobuco on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @01:29PM (#42320423)
Yet, if you look at real wages over time, they're stagnating in pretty much every developed country. Productivity has gone up consistently while wages lag far behind. Where is all that value going to? Because it isn't certainly being left on the table.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by 9rx on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:08PM (#42321498)
> if you look at real wages over time, they're stagnating in pretty much every developed country.

If you look at real incomes over time, they've been stagnant since the dawn of time; or at least as far back as we have kept track.

There was once wage growth because wages started from zero. It wasn't that many years ago that people didn't sell labor, only things. As we have transitioned into a labor economy, wages started to become a larger portion of one's income. To the point that nowadays more or less 100% of the average person's income is from wages.

So, with incomes and wages now being effectively equivalent, there is no room for wages to grow further. To do that now, incomes would also need to rise, and that has never happened.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by ossobuco on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @04:28PM (#42322225)
This doesn't make any sense to me. Wages have steadily raised at the same rate of productivity between the end of WWII and the 1970s. People started selling their labor centuries before that.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by 9rx on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @04:45PM (#42322367)
It started to some degree centuries before, but it was a slow road to see people fully embrace the new world. However, by the 1970s, nearly everyone was working for wages. The rate of self-employment has remained effectively stagnant since then. This period marks, for all intents and purposes, the limit of human labor productivity.

Productivity has continued to rise since, but on the back of automation, not as a result of humans becoming even more productive laborers.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:07PM (#42320822)
The extra value goes to the government. Dealing with the huge mass of government sucks up a lot of value, not including the heavy taxes.

Take a look at the size of government over time. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for that?

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by bluecheese452 on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:14PM (#42321564)
Like your family with your dad’s military job?
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:38PM (#42322843)
Where do you think the money comes from to pay for the military?
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by loeg on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @09:32PM (#42324223)
> Productivity has gone up consistently while wages lag far behind.

This isn't true for the US. The chart that purports to show this is misleading. Essentially, there are problems with the usual chart: the two lines are indexed to different inflation measures, and the wages line excludes certain highly compensated occupations which have been experiencing significant earnings growth (probably because these occupations are where the productivity growth is happening).

Edit: Actually, even more issues. https://x.com/AwayBerk/status/1483564925213683719

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Thursday December 05, 2024 @02:41AM (#42325903)
Some of those charts tracked wages rather than total employee compensation. The latter was quite a bit more.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by loeg on Thursday December 05, 2024 @03:34PM (#42332463)
Yes, exactly.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by achierius on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @01:47PM (#42320588)
It really doesn't, that's a crazy reach to make.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:09PM (#42320854)
The LoS&D is always in play. In this case, entrepreneurs are always looking for a higher margin business. The effect of this is to lower those margins.

Nothing "crazy" about it.

The "unintended side effects" of government policies are nearly always the result of ignoring the LoS&D or pretending it doesn't exist.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by marcosdumay on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:47PM (#42321283)
The amount of things the "law" of supply and demand predicts is literally zero.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:40PM (#42322856)
You obey it yourself. Have you ever bought anything that was on sale? Have you ever negotiated a price?
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by marcosdumay on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:58PM (#42322979)
A "law" that predicts nothing? Yeah, pretty sure I obey it exactly.

Supply and demand is a framework you can use to write your hypothesis in. It's not a law that predicts things.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @09:45PM (#42324282)
The reason collectivism fails every time is because they believe that the LoS&D does not exist.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by criddell on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @01:54PM (#42320682)
Income inequality is strong predictor of unhappiness in a population.

You ask why I care about income inequality? It's because I want more happiness in my community.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:04PM (#42320792)
It's impossible to measure happiness.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by CatWChainsaw on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:45PM (#42321857)
What if you conduct a survey that asks you to rate your happiness level from 0 to 10.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:37PM (#42322840)
How would you know that your 6 is equivalent to the other guy's 8? Nobody knows. It's impossible.

There are also cultural differences to what "happiness" even means.

Any study about happiness is likely to be bogus.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by CatWChainsaw on Thursday December 05, 2024 @09:10PM (#42335452)
Then it seems any study about any emotion or subjective interpretation is also bogus.
Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by jimmySixDOF on Monday December 09, 2024 @05:09AM (#42364656)
There is actually an annual UN World Happiness Report and there have been various pushes to OKR/KPI Gross National Happiness (see Bhutan for example).

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-happiness

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by UncleOxidant on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @02:41PM (#42321225)
> If you really want to make big money: 1. start your own business

I'm pretty sure that in my case that would be a fast way to lose a lot of money, but YYMV, I guess.

Re:Why America's economy is soaring ahead of its rivals by WalterBright on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:37PM (#42324682)
> I'm pretty sure that in my case that would be a fast way to lose a lot of money

80% of people who start a business lose money on it. Hence, making a lot of money on a business is quite unusual, not the norm.