I have a good job in the Bay Area, and I spend 4K a month. Of course if I were a family, there is no way I could support a wife in 4K a month but that is rare anyway. If she were working too, I could surely support a child in 6k a month. At this cost my life includes:

1. A Tesla Model 3, on which I spend 1k a month with insurance

2. 1.5k rent for a studio in a good safe location with utilities

3. Rest on groceries, eating out movies etc.

If I decided to get a cheap car, I could easily have 600$ or more to spend on housing etc. So it would be tight but as a single 20s male, I would make it with 50k a year after taxes. Everything else just goes into savings. I think people have lavish tastes, or no control over their spending if they can’t make do with 70k a year after taxes.

>if they can’t make do with 70k a year after taxes

I don't think the median income is after taxes, is it? That would be more reasonable, for sure. My comment was made in reference to friends who make $70k/yr before taxes.

No, the bureau of labor household/personal income figures are not reported post-tax.

// 2. 1.5k rent for a studio in a good safe location with utilities

I actually can't think of an EU Capital where that's achievable anymore, bar possibly the socialist outlier of Vienna. In Dublin a good studio is at least 2k, and you'll pay 52% tax on earnings over €70k as well...

To be fair, I’m not living in a SF proper, there it would cost around 2.5k but still EU is crazy expensive for the low wages they get paid.

But you have data privacy, social net there. You win some you lose some.

It's all about rent. If you've lived somewhere a while and have rent control, or you have roommates, or an unorthodox living situation (e.g. no kitchen), or can find a below-market unit, or some combination of those, you can survive on FAR less than someone who is moving to the city today and signing a new lease on a market-rate 1-bedroom apartment.

Doesn't not having a kitchen probably mean you're eating out every meal? That's quite expensive.

Sometimes it's like a half fridge and a two burner electric stove. Maybe you have an air fryer. Maybe you just microwave a lot of stuff. Or do like I do, eat a lot of simple uncooked meals, like fresh fruits and veggies, nuts, smoked fish, cheese, etc. I'm constantly amazed at how so many people assume everyone must eat exactly like they do.

You're amazed most people have kitchens? Lol unreal.

I'm amazed when someone assumes others must eat out every meal if they don't have the ability to broil a roast in their home. Though I shouldn't be amazed - the inability of people to understand lives that work differently then their own seems widespread.

Broil a roast? Now you've really lost me.

It was a turn of phrase, most people would understand the meaning easily.

You said without a kitchen, not without an oven. If you have a fridge and a range, you have a kitchen.

You have roommates. Or you live in less than 400 sq feet. Or you're in an older rent control.

Nah this is just false. I'm a founder and pay myself less than our employees, 70k does just fine. I define just fine as 'enough so you don't have to be distracted by coupon clipping for daily necessities, and can still travel on trips and buy splurge purchases like a fancy rice cooker or designer couch or fancy cocktails.'

I live alone in a 2br. I don't have assistance from family or a partner.

Now, I do not live in a luxury building, and I am not building up a nest egg from my salary. And I rent. But when people think about the costs of NYC, a lot of people forget that you don't need a car, car insurance, or gas.

Where you get into trouble is if you're paying a stupid large amount for rent. It is very possible to pay 1-2k / month in rent. Most people who move to the city at that budget live with roommates initially, but most find a really good deal, sometimes rent controlled, organically through networks after a year or two of living here. Deals are hard to find as they should be, but certainly exist, and most longterm locals have a great deal.

[on a salary of 70k] “I am not building up a nest egg from my salary”

You are robbing from your future to live in the present.

This might be ok for you specifically as you are making a gamble on your ownership of the startup paying off. Perhaps you have a family safety net. Or Perhaps you are ok with taking the risk that you don’t have enough money in your older years.

It’s not really ok for standard employees to live that way. The USA social contract is that each person must self-fund their own retirement. Deferring that savings to “later” has truly staggering costs in compound-interest-years lost.

"It’s not really ok for standard employees to live that way."

The majority of standard employees live this way, or with less.

>and I am not building up a nest egg from my salary

So you can't actually afford to maintain your lifestyle, unless your retirement plan is a revolver.

>Nah this is just false.

What is false?

I didn't make any claims other than saying that in my circles I see some of my friends and colleagues have trouble making it by on $70k. I'm not sure how you would be able to tell me that I'm wrong about that. I'm happy that you are able to make it on $70k, though.

>I didn't make any claims other than saying that in my circles I see some of my friends and colleagues have trouble making it by on $70k. I'm not sure how you would be able to tell me that I'm wrong about that.

Okay, then let's make this rigorous.

Falsifiable Claim: People live a life of struggle on 70k a year in new york, where struggle is defined by constant worries of physiological needs, safety, and security, as categorized in Manslow's hierarchy of needs. https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

Falsified by counterexample.

QED.

For a lot of people, they may mean 'struggle' in the sense of living below where they want to be, which is relative. Maslow's hierarchy is helpful to categorize.

This might be the most "hackernews" comments I've seen in awhile.

Can we maybe just have a normal conversation without trying to flex our superior debating skills?

I was curious how many people that make the median wage in NYC are living comfortably solo -- that's it!

You're making up claims, disconnected from my comments, and then falsifying them yourself in some sort of weird self-debating comment.