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Re:My Time Working at Stripe by fnordpiglet on Saturday November 02, 2024 @04:00AM (#42024793)
These symptoms are a classic sign of burn out. One thing I notice in your writing is you’re very tied up in things having meaning and mattering in some specific way. This itself can lead to burnout because if everything must matter you must be emotionally invested in everything. But you can care without it mattering to you. You can do a good job without being totally invested in everything about it. You can love what you do without it having significance in every detail.

In a complex job with a fast pace, a fair amount of tech debt around every edge, a relentless pace of innovation happening, and - yes - growth, there’s too much to be invested in everything. It doesn’t have to matter that much. The parts you really care about, the craft and quality of your work, your relationships, mentoring and growing the people around you, seeing things get better one piece at a time, and a few things - they can matter. But everything can’t. And even those you have to at some very deep level realize don’t matter really.

Stripe doesn’t really exist in this world. It’s a shared fiction to help frame the interactions between you and a few people you actually interact with in a day. The real truth is the only thing that happens in your days is you type on a computer and talk to a few people. It actually doesn’t matter in any meaningful way what you typed or some higher purpose around humbling honesty or exothermic curiosity or PMEs or whatever stories we tell ourselves to create some sort of reality out of the fiction. The only important things you really do is how you shape the lives of the people you interact with, and how you shape your own life.

Burnout is hard. Adopt a daily meditation practice. Let your mind heal by letting go of meaning and practice enjoying the moment you’re in with whomever you’re with, but most especially yourself. The joy will come back faster the faster you let go of things needing to matter or have deeper meaning, especially when those things are a fiction like a company or a career or any of the other small and big lies we’ve been told and we reinforce to ourselves daily. I know I’ve been there man, and I know exactly - exactly - the sensations and experiences you describe. It gets better, but I think once you get there it never totally goes away and it’s easier to slip back.

FWIW I don’t think burnout is the same as depression. I’ve felt both and burnout is different. It’s that loss of ability to engage - which overlaps with depression - but usually doesn’t come with the thoughts of hopeless despair and desire for life to be over. It’s just more of a deadness and inability to initiate what you think you should want to do but can’t, and it pervasively impacts everything.

It gets better.

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by Gooblebrai on Saturday November 02, 2024 @05:26AM (#42025128)
Very good write-up, thanks!
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by 3vidence on Saturday November 02, 2024 @05:44AM (#42025204)
Commenting to save this for myself.

Of the many many hours I've spent on this website, this comment probably made me feel more relaxed than anything else.

Please continue your kind and helpful words on the internet:)

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by kelnos on Saturday November 02, 2024 @03:25PM (#42028597)
Meta: if you click on a comment's timestamp, you'll get a "favorite" link that you can use to bookmark a comment.
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by 3vidence on Monday November 04, 2024 @06:11PM (#42047022)
Had no idea about this! Thanks!
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by jalopy on Saturday November 02, 2024 @08:38AM (#42026035)
Great advice.

What books/resources do you suggest to follow more on this path of meditation (possibly also stoicism)?

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by fnordpiglet on Saturday November 02, 2024 @05:44PM (#42029434)
For me I studied vipassana and Buddhism, and did the daily meditations with Gil Fronsdal[0] on his amazing audio dharma[1] which has a lot of resources (and his teachings dating back 25+ years recorded and freely available there). If you’re in the area you can visit the insight meditation center[2] in Redwood City.

I think these things helped me a lot in my recovery but I also don’t think it’s necessary or sufficient. I think my advice above is the real key, but vipassana and Buddhism give a pretty structured approach to achieve the appropriate detachment from what’s not truly real and the appreciation for what is. IMO that’s the basis for recovering from burnout durably. But the other thing is there’s no magic, it takes time.

0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Fronsdal 1 https://www.audiodharma.org/speakers/1 2 https://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by replwoacause on Saturday November 02, 2024 @08:43AM (#42026064)
Very insightful comment and it describes quite accurately what my experience with burnout has been. Thank you
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by alexpetralia on Saturday November 02, 2024 @09:25AM (#42026258)
Bingo.
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by rnts08 on Saturday November 02, 2024 @09:31AM (#42026285)
This is spot on.

Thank you for pointing it out.

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by dionian on Saturday November 02, 2024 @10:31AM (#42026608)
I second this. Well put
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by morning-coffee on Saturday November 02, 2024 @10:50AM (#42026719)
Very well said and spot on. Thanks for posting.
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by ryandrake on Saturday November 02, 2024 @11:08AM (#42026823)
The way I conquered burnout was by having a life outside of work that isn't computer related. In my early twenties, the only notable attribute of my life was work and computers. I'd wake up in the morning, go to work programming things, then get home and either do programming side projects or play computer games, then I'd go to sleep and repeat it the next day. I had no hobbies, no friends or acquaintances outside of the people I met at work, and nothing to drive me besides the artificial goals at work. Recipe for burnout and it constantly happened.

Eventually, I got married, had a family, found things to do in the community, and do plenty of sports and hobbies that involve shutting off the computer. Even though my jobs after my 20s have been even more soul-crushing than the ones I had earlier, I've never had a hint of burnout. When I'm done with work, I shut off the computer and that's it. I'll go build a piece of furniture, or repair my car, spend time with my kid, anything that doesn't involve office politics, two week sprints, or status reports. Just having a life outside of work has done wonders for my mental health. No meditation or spirituality needed!

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by kelnos on Saturday November 02, 2024 @03:24PM (#42028580)
Yup, avoiding burnout is all about having rich alternatives for your time. If you find yourself working yourself to the point that you don't have the energy to do anything else outside of work, you need to cut back.

If you do get burned out, the only remedy I've found is time away, sometimes many months of it. That's really tough (or impossible) for many people's financial situations, though.

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by Mindjolt on Saturday November 02, 2024 @11:15AM (#42026868)
Commenting because I want to revisit this at a future point of time
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by wtroughton on Saturday November 02, 2024 @11:43AM (#42027055)
“A shared fiction in the world to help frame interactions between people”. You sir are a natural philosopher.

I think what’s universally important is to keep active and engaged in what we’re doing. Some of us have to tell fictions that what we’re doing has meaning, whilst others just know what brings meaning to their life.

Re:My Time Working at Stripe by kelvinjps10 on Saturday November 02, 2024 @12:01PM (#42027166)
Great comment
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by fblp on Saturday November 02, 2024 @03:03PM (#42028418)
I've never seen much gratitude for a HN post. Thank you!
Re:My Time Working at Stripe by kelnos on Saturday November 02, 2024 @03:32PM (#42028645)
Incredibly well said.

It feels flippant to say, "stop caring so much about things", but it's actually great advice.

We should think of ourselves as having a limited "caring budget", and be judicious in how we spend that budget. Part of the trick is figuring out what that budget is, since it can be different for different people, or even different for the same person at different times in their life.

I think framing burnout in this way is helpful: you get burned out when too much is too important to you, and you've overextended your emotional ability to give a part of yourself to each of those things, for too much time.

An important thing about that to me is that it doesn't at all consider whether things are going well or poorly with all those "too important" things. Certainly things going poorly will increase stress, but even caring too much about too many things that are all going well can burn you out.