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Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by vips7L on Thursday October 31, 2024 @02:44PM (#42010078)
Most the Debian benchmarks for C# are cheaty too. They frequently just call out to C libraries rather than use something implemented in the language.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by neonsunset on Thursday October 31, 2024 @03:59PM (#42010872)
Not sure which benchmarks you have in mind. Could you provide a link to any of those? .NET's standard library never calls into anything C aside from kernel APIs and certain runtime helpers which is a given.

If you meant BenchmarksGame, then it's the other way around - Java is most competitive where it relies heavily on GC[0], and loses in other areas which require capability to write a low-level implementation[1] that C# provides.

The only places where there are C calls are pidigts[2] and regex-redux[3] benchmarks, in both of which the Java submissions have to import pre-generated or pre-made bindings to GMP and PCRE2 respectively. As do all other languages, with varying degrees of "preparation".

[0]: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

[1]: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

[2]: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

[3]: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by vips7L on Friday November 01, 2024 @09:19AM (#42016672)
Im sorry, but calling out to C libraries — regardless of the language — is cheating. Just because everyone in the competition is on steroids doesn’t mean you got there legitimately.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by neonsunset on Friday November 01, 2024 @11:39AM (#42018050)
This is a strange reply given that sibling comment points out it's only 2 out of 10 benchmarks where this is allowed because all languages end up calling out to the same libraries.

Even if you prohibit PCRE2, the .NET submissions using out-of-box Regex engine end up being about 4 times faster than Java.

Surprisingly, even though .NET's BigInteger is known for its inefficiency, it ends up being more memory efficient and marginally faster at pidigits than a Java submission that does not use GMP. The implementations are not line-by-line equivalent so may not be perfectly representative of performance of each BigInt implementation.

My point being - if you look at the submissions closer, the data gives much clearer picture and only supports the argument that C# is a very usable language for solving the tasks one would usually reach for C, C++ or Rust instead.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by vips7L on Friday November 01, 2024 @12:28PM (#42018640)
Its not a strange reply at all. _All_ of those languages are cheating. Those benchmarks are junk because they don't test implementations in the language.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Friday November 01, 2024 @01:16PM (#42019251)
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Friday November 01, 2024 @12:27PM (#42018629)
https://www.wilfred.me.uk/blog/2014/10/20/the-fastest-bigint...

Look at all the programming language implementations that provide big integers by calling out to GMP. Why would it be "cheating" when available to all and done openly? Libraries matter.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Thursday October 31, 2024 @05:52PM (#42011933)
No, they do not "frequently just call out to C libraries".

2 of 10 (pidigits and regex-redux) allow use of widely available third party libraries — GMP, PCRE, RE2 — because there were language implementations that simply wrapped those libraries.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by lossolo on Thursday October 31, 2024 @09:04PM (#42013094)
You should really create a way to filter solutions with SIMD intrinsics and without them.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Thursday October 31, 2024 @10:12PM (#42013443)
Like the hand-written vector instructions | "unsafe" section down-page?

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

It’s not that easy. I assume other programs hide the use in macros and libraries, in ways far beyond my simple understanding.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by lossolo on Thursday October 31, 2024 @10:23PM (#42013501)
Cool! I didn’t see it before, maybe because I mostly use the language vs. language feature. There is no such section there, but it would be very helpful IMO, instead of clicking every solution to check which one is intrinsics free.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Thursday October 31, 2024 @10:38PM (#42013573)
> language vs. language

Where there are few enough programs that readers should check that the programs they compare seem appropriate for their purpose.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by lossolo on Friday November 01, 2024 @01:13AM (#42014237)
Well, it's your site, so you can do what you want with it, but I don't believe what you just wrote is logical at all. Sometimes, you just want to see, in general, how one language compares to another when one uses intrinsics and the other doesn't, without having to click through every single benchmark across multiple versions to find one without intrinsics. This is just bad UX and waste of time.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by neonsunset on Friday November 01, 2024 @03:32AM (#42014769)
Surely you wouldn’t say that if the language you wanted to win had SIMD API :)
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Friday November 01, 2024 @12:09PM (#42018387)
> one uses intrinsics and the other doesn't

Why? Did you mean both use intrinsics or both don't?

> Sometimes, you just want to see

As-it-says, look for more-secs less-gz-source-code -- probably less optimised.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Saturday November 02, 2024 @07:09PM (#42029913)
*

But it’s not that easy.

Filters some but maybe not all and maybe filters some wrongly.

Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by vips7L on Friday November 01, 2024 @09:10AM (#42016606)
20% is frequently. And calling out to C is cheaty.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Friday November 01, 2024 @12:10PM (#42018407)
Why would it be "cheaty" when available to all and done openly? Libraries matter.
Re:A comparison of Rust's borrow checker to the one in C# by igouy on Saturday November 02, 2024 @02:12PM (#42028078)
In any case, because the charts are frequently cut & pasted out-of-context they should not include pi-digits and regex-redux data. Now they don't, so thank you.

If you don't think it's appropriate to compare the pi-digits and regex-redux programs, simply ignore them and compare the other 8!