News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by steveklabnik on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @11:10AM (#41778203)
It isn’t. The idea is to quantify the risk. A buggy toolchain is okay if the bugs are known and you can demonstrate how you’re mitigating them. All software has bugs, you cannot rely on the idea of bug free software to ensure safety, you must have a process that is robust in the face of problems.
Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @11:16AM (#41778263)
Sure, but if you can do something to reduce the number of bugs it seems like you should still do that?
Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by steveklabnik on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @11:44AM (#41778621)
I don’t disagree that in general, reducing the number of bugs is a good goal, but there’s always a limit to how far you go. It’s not like every line is formally proven, for example. Just because you can use a specific technique doesn’t mean that you must.

But also I don’t work directly in these industries and so maybe my impression of this aspect of their processes is incorrect.

Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by tialaramex on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @05:25PM (#41781982)
I actually think far more of these safety of life standards should require formal proof.

IMNSHO the standards were set so low so that C++ could clamber over the low bar, and it's a happy consequence in some sense that Rust has no trouble clearing it, but the bar should be raised considerably instead. Software crucial to the safe operation of an airliner ought to be proven correct, not just slapped together in any of the general purpose languages, including Rust and then subject to a bit more process than for a web app.

Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by adrianN on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @12:45AM (#41784580)
That would explode the costs for marginal safety improvements. I think the same effort spent on better requirement engineering would yield more payoff.
Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by tialaramex on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @04:45AM (#41785784)
Why do you believe this would "explode the costs" ?

Why would the resulting safety improvements be "marginal" ?

Re:Rust is rolling off the Volvo assembly line by adrianN on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @01:47PM (#41790669)
Because proving correctness for complex software is difficult and very few people have relevant experience. So it is both labor intensive and you need to pay high wages. I believe the safety improvements are marginal because of my experience in safety critical development. Almost all the bugs we did not find by testing turned out to be problems with the requirements that led to interoperability issues. Proving the correct implementation of wrong requirements would not have helped.