News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:37PM (#41502700)
The best way to avoid Ukraine's terrible fate is to not follow in Ukraine's footsteps. This week we are getting testimony from insiders Nuland and Arestovych that the war truly could have been avoided (multiple times, even in the first week after Russia invaded) but Ukrainian "leadership" succumbed to foreign (US/UK) pressure.

Poland should defend its interests AND its political sovereignty. Ukraine failed at both long before Feb 2022 despite numerous opportunities to recover.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by some_random on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:47PM (#41502836)
I don't understand how someone could believe this in 2024, it's extremely clear that Russia's design for Ukraine was to incorporate it back as a client state at least if not completely annex it. This has been their stated objective from day one of the invasion that they have continued to pursue to today.
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by throw_pm23 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @01:17PM (#41503161)
Is it obvious that being a client state would be worse than the current situation?
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by some_random on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @01:38PM (#41503402)
That's a very personal question, one that you can only answer for yourself. Do you value freedom? Do you think it's worth fighting for? Is it worth suffering now so your nation can thrive later? Do you think it's worth taking a fight with a "bully" (aka a belligerent, exploitative actor) instead of giving in?
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @03:36PM (#41504658)
Ukraine was among the most corrupt countries in Europe since 1991 -- no one (West or Rest) disputes this. It was politically very weak and prone to gravity from both Moscow and Brussels.

To assert that Moscow wanted Ukraine as a "client state" but imply by omission that Brussels/Washington did not want Ukraine as a "client state" is simply disingenuous and disregards the entire political history of Ukraine since 1991.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by talldayo on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @01:38PM (#41513564)
> Ukraine was among the most corrupt countries in Europe since 1991

Among who, the USSR? It makes perfect sense that a nation seeking independence from the most corrupt European country would retain oligarchs that abuse their power. Plus, compared to other socialist republics like Hoxha's Albania, Ukraine had economic and political stability in spades.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @03:03PM (#41514324)
Hoxha wasn't even alive in 1991.
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by aguaviva on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @02:46PM (#41504172)
What "testimony" are you referring to?

The war truly could have been avoided (multiple times, even in the first week after Russia invaded) but Ukrainian "leadership" succumbed to foreign (US/UK) pressure.

This is a myth and is easily debunked. But unfortunately your use of square quotes here signals an intent to discourage reasoned discussion on the topic.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @03:41PM (#41504711)
> What "testimony" are you referring to?

Nuland's interview this week: https://responsiblestatecraft.org/nuland-ukraine-peace-deal/

A leader does not sacrifice a million of their people on behalf of foreign interests, when relatively modest, peaceful concessions could be made that avoid war in the short- and long-term. It's offensive to call such wanton disregard for countrymen as "leadership".

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by aguaviva on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @04:34PM (#41505208)
A leader does not sacrifice a million of their people ...

The highest estimates (from anything resembling reliable sources) point to an upper bound of 200k (likely closer to 150k) deaths on the Ukrainian side as of the current moment.

Which is of course a horrendous number, but the question here is: why are you intentionally providing us with number that is at least 5x of even the highest of reliable estimates we have for the real number for the losses that Russia has inflicted upon Ukraine so far?

When relatively modest, peaceful concessions could be made

The very article you linked to indicates that the redline concessions demanded by the Russian side would have been neither modest, nor peaceful. This (in addition to Russian atrocities on the ground, and Russia's rapidly deteriorating performance on the battleground at the time) were why Ukraine (very rationally) chose not to take the bait that was offered to them.

Basically the article is putting a severe and misleading spin on what Nuland actually did say. And it seems you are uncritically accepting this spin at face value.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @06:55PM (#41506447)
In addition to the flaws that you point out:

1. Putin invaded the first time, even if he hid it behind "little green men". Putin invaded a second time, even though he claimed it was "just training exercises" right up to the moment that Russian troops crossed the border. Why would anyone sane expect that Russia would be satisfied with the "relatively modest" concessions Putin demanded? It would have been another "peace in our time". And just like last time, the time of peace would not have been long.

2. The GP talks about violations of the Minsk Accords, as if only one side was violating them. That is... a very highly biased view of events.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @12:25PM (#41512873)
What concrete steps did Ukraine take to implement the Minsk Accords?
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @05:14PM (#41505654)
Fine, Zelensky has electively sacrificed between 100K-1M of his fellow countrymen on behalf of foreign interests. Still awful.

And sorry, but no amount of condescension will convince me (or anyone) that Ukraine is better off today in 2024 than they were in early 2022 when, as Nuland implied, US/UK sabotaged the peace talks at the start of the war. As a national leader, Zelensky acted extremely irrationally. As an agent of foreign powers, he performed well.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by aguaviva on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @05:45PM (#41505931)
You're pulling numbers (and a whole lot of other dodgy assertions) out of the air, and no, it's not fine at all.

On top of that -- when politely confronted for having done so, rather than simply acknowledge what (up until then) might have been charitably dismissed as a mistake -- you doubled down on these purely invented numbers.

It's flame bait, and against site guidelines, which instruct us that comments be "more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive".

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @12:19PM (#41512822)
There's no authoritative source on Ukrainian casualties so smearing an educated estimate (within an order of magnitude of Ukrainian war-propaganda figures) as "flamebait", while dodging the main points, is hilariously off-base and itself constitutes bad-faith engagement and flamebait. Classic misdirection.

I won't be engaging further with your new, single-purpose user account.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by _dark_matter_ on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:45PM (#41502811)
This makes... No sense. There is no guarantee that any action Ukraine took would have prevented war. The counterfactual could have just meant more war.
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @03:44PM (#41504749)
If it makes no sense, then clearly you haven't been paying attention to the facts on the ground. How can you say peace has no chance if you never give peace a chance?

Please show a single instance where Ukraine made any significant concrete effort to implment the Minsk accords, for instance.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by _dark_matter_ on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @03:52PM (#41504806)
Did I say peace had no chance? It did, until Putin decided to invade. Putin has the choice to withdraw and bring peace, simple as that.
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by pphysch on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @05:17PM (#41505683)
The Minsk agreements predated the 2022 war. Can you point to that evidence where Ukraine ever took them seriously to avoid war?
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by _dark_matter_ on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @06:57PM (#41506463)
I think what you're quickly discovering is that no one is falling for a Russian shill.
Re:Six Ideas for Poland by talldayo on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:39PM (#41502728)
> the war truly could have been avoided (multiple times, even in the first week after Russia invaded) but Ukrainian "leadership" succumbed to foreign (US/UK) pressure.

If we want to play "woulda coulda shoulda", Ukraine arguably could have avoided this by not letting Russia repatriate Soviet weapons that could be used as deterrence. Ukraine used to have ICBMs that could strike deep into Russia, an obvious deterrent had they not been forced to give them up.

Re:Six Ideas for Poland by somenameforme on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @01:59PM (#41503670)
Ukraine never had control of those nukes. The USSR centralized control of all nuclear weapons and everything related to them (launch sequences, codes, etc). And that centralization remained within Russia. They could have tried to override the lockouts and somehow manage to get them working but it probably would have been met with global sanctions on top of an invasion from multiple countries. Their other choice is go the route they went - exchange the nukes for a bunch of money and some mostly meaningless pledges of good will.

The reality of life is that in many situations you don't have a good option and a bad one, but rather a bad one and a terrible one. So demonstrating one choice is bad does not make the other inherently better. And when you're a small power stuck between two giants, this is the name of the game. See: Switzerland managing to remain neutral throughout both WW1 and WW2. A tiny little power pissing off both the Allied and Axis powers, leaving them standing completely alone? Clearly a bad decision, but also clearly the best decision. Same here.