News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @09:42AM (#414237)
People work way too hard on these analyses, just compare the price. The cheaper one is better for the environment.

Edit, sorry should have added this before: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=346912 explains my statement (so I don't have to retype it).

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by whacked_new on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @11:46AM (#414348)
Do you consider brand markup to be an edge case? If not, how would you explain it?
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @07:22PM (#414886)
Brand name products usually use fancier packaging, they spend money on advertising (direct mail fliers for example), the extra profits encourage more waste in the company since they can afford it, while generic manufactures will go to great lengths to be very efficient. And if money is not spent there it goes to larger marketing budgets, and finally if nothing else to profits, and larger salary. Larger salary usually means larger home, etc, and all that goes with it. So, no, it's not an edge case.

PS. The environment should not be your only reason for choosing or not choosing something to buy. But comparing the price will help you avoid greenwashing.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by whacked_new on Wednesday December 31, 2008 @04:08AM (#415323)
Without thinking particularly deep about this issue, I suppose your idea runs alongside the efficient market hypothesis. You're making assumptions about the relationship between resource input and product output and perceived value. Like in the EMH, the ideal conditions are perfect information (let's also say perfect money->resource conversion), and rational customers.

EMH advocates would say the system is pretty efficient at pricing already; you could argue that the fancier packaging and expensive marketing takes all the markup into account, so when a customer buys, the products are fairly priced, at least in terms of summing up the steps in the value chain. I'm not so sure about that. Tulips, for example.

So at the cheap end of the scale I would tend to agree with you. For brand markup though, I still think the same rules don't apply as well. It is plausible that the higher the price, the less exact the correlation between environmental impact. In other words, intuition says that "environmental cost of a product is almost exactly equal to it's monetary cost" is less and less applicable as price rises noncompetitively, and brand markup and investor exuberance, are such cases.

Oh, I thought of another example. This is just silly: virtual goods. Anyhow your rule of thumb of buying cheap still holds here (the alternative to buying a virtual good is simply not buying, because you have nothing in both cases!). But this is a clear case where you are purchasing a psychological effect. And I would venture a guess that the more psychology you mix into the pricing the less you can infer its environmental cost.

Alright, I'm stating the obvious... nitpicking over semantics I guess.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Wednesday December 31, 2008 @08:54AM (#415444)
Don't forget about profit. The company (i.e. shareholders) are making a larger profit from the marked up item. The money they earn will eventually be spent, and will have an environmental impact.

To your virtual items example:

What determines scarcity and cost? Or more accurately: what is the input into the product to create it?

There are two options here: the items is simply marked up for no reason (i.e. the server releases them rarely for no reason at all), and then the profit situation takes hold.

The other option is that the virtual items are priced correctly, so what makes them rare? (If they were not rare, and priced correctly, then their value is zero.) Usually what makes them rare is the human time spent on making/finding them. Which means that their cost is basically wages, and no different from a real item.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by josefresco on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @09:48AM (#414243)
By your (hopefully sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek) logic, oil is a green fuel as it's cheaper (currently) than solar/wind/geo-thermal.
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @09:55AM (#414250)
No not sarcastic. Except for pollution the cheaper one really is better for the environment. Please read my post I just linked.

Building a windmill, or solar panels (not sure about geo-thermal) costs a tremendous amount of resources, and energy. So yes, except for CO2 emissions oil actually can be better for the environment. Do please remember that there is more to the environment than CO2. It takes at least 10-15 years for a windmill to pay back it's environmental costs. And for solar panels it's something like 30 years (infinity actually since they don't last that long).

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by brentb on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @12:18PM (#414385)
Except for pollution the cheaper one really is better for the environment.

This is actually a great heuristic, but pollution is only part of the story. A more general (and correct) statement would be "excluding externalities (including pollution) the cheaper one really is better for the environment".

Externalities are basically costs or benefits (to society, the environment, etc.) that aren't reflected in the price paid for an item. One really important thing to note is that externalities extend far beyond pollution and can be both positive and negative.

Pollution is one of the more visible negative externalities that get discussed, but there are plenty of others (for example, driving a car involves a host of negative externalities in addition to pollution such as increased road congestion (longer commute times, more fuel burned in traffic, more accidents)).

There are also plenty of positive externalities that often get ignored. Take windmills, solar panels and hybrid cars. The positive externalities associated with manufacturing these items include lower future manufacturing costs for such items (and lower prices and environmental costs as a result) and investment in R&D aimed at making electricity and/or transportation cheaper (both in terms of environmental and financial costs). So even though solar panels may currently be losing proposition environmentally, there are positive externalities that make buying solar panels today (and thereby moving the industry forward) a Good Thing for the environment.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by randallsquared on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @10:20AM (#414272)
Ideally, price would completely capture that information. Of course, in reality, pollution imposes a cost on others, but it's hard to calculate the external cost, because, like crime, the cost isn't paid by the decision-maker, and unlike crime, the actual cost is very small (individually).

In any case, there's no way to actually avoid all costs being imposed on others from your actions (waste heat, if nothing else), so it's unclear to me what's to be done about it.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by brentb on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @12:31PM (#414401)
One thing you can do about it is to tax a commodity that acts as a proxy for the negative externality in question. For example, we could tax fuel sources relative to the amount of pollution and/or greenhouse gases that are produced, on average, when they are burned. So coal would have a given tax rate and gas would have another and propane another... this would capture the environmental cost of consuming those fuels in the price.

Unfortunately, such a simple and effective solution is politically very unpopular, which is why we have yet to see it passed into law. People want to take care of the environment, as long as it doesn't cost them anything. Well, most people anyway.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by randallsquared on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @02:08PM (#414529)
One reason I'm against such an attempt at a solution is that it would be very difficult to do this in such a way that it isn't worse than the original problem.
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by emmett on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @04:27PM (#414696)
I don't think that's so. For example, a tax on fossil fuels based on carbon output would be simple and easy to enforce (importer/extracter pays the tax). It would cause all goods to reflect their true carbon cost. Why would that be worse than the original problem?

You could even couple the tax with an offsetting decrease in other taxes, if you're worried about increasing the total tax burden.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @07:33PM (#414897)
Except why pick carbon? There are many other pollutants I care far more about. VoC's for example (someone spray painting), smoke, NOx's, heavy metals. Trash litter. Spilled toxic fluids.

I consider those much worse than carbon.

If a pollution tax was implemented I would give the money back as cash to every person in the country. So the money would basically move in a circle, but those who are more efficient will gain.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by randallsquared on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @08:09PM (#414928)
"If a pollution tax was implemented I would give the money back as cash to every person in the country. So the money would basically move in a circle, but those who are more efficient will gain."

Well, I'm predisposed against this idea, but that sounds more like an argument for than against it. If everyone's paying in proportion to their cost to others (a big 'if'), then those who cost others less should be paid more than they pay, all else equal.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by emmett on Wednesday December 31, 2008 @04:31PM (#415918)
What makes you think I'd be against externalities taxes on all of the above? I think it makes much more sense to tax those things, which we don't want more of in our society, rather than say capital gains, which we do want.
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by randallsquared on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @08:11PM (#414930)
One problem is that if it turns out that we enter a cooling period (due to solar activity decrease or something else), it seems unlikely that such a tax would be repealed just because it was actively harmful (cf. prohibition).
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by emmett on Wednesday December 31, 2008 @04:32PM (#415921)
Presume for a moment that you believe global warm is a real and present danger. Then a carbon tax makes perfect sense.

I agree if you think that global warming is uncertain, or that perhaps we actually want to increase CO2 in the atmosphere, a carbon tax would be a bad idea.

Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by anewaccountname on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @05:35PM (#414771)
Cars without catalytic converters are cheaper than cars with them...
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @07:18PM (#414880)
I guess you didn't actually read the post. I said: except for pollution.
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by anewaccountname on Tuesday January 06, 2009 @08:46PM (#422804)
I don't see the words "except for pollution" anywhere in your post.
Re:Is your Netflix queue destroying the environment? by ars on Wednesday January 07, 2009 @10:48PM (#424421)
The post was a summary - the content was in the link in the post. Read that.