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Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tptacek on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:16PM (#4139407)
Oh, boy, these threads are going to be a whole bucket of fun. 200-odd commenters competing to see who can most stridently express opposition to the copyright/royalty/license business model of mainstream music, and 5 of us getting yelled at for suggesting that maybe private businesses should be able to pick their own business models, even if they're completely idiotic, and that everyone has the right to simply not buy music provided under business models they find objectionable.

But I'm sure the whole thing will wrap up nicely with Hacker News solving the problem of digital music sales once and for all.

(I didn't flag; the articles themselves are interesting, even if I utterly despair for the quality of debate they'll inspire here.)

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by JoshTriplett on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:26PM (#4139456)
You forgot the half-dozen people making meta-complaints about the views they'd like to see expressed on HN and the views they'd like to see silenced. :)
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by kiba on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:27PM (#4139462)
Nation-states have the right to pick completely idiotic policies(even if the consequence are horrific) and we citizens have the right to move with our feet(Not so easy with immigration laws)?

In truth, I am kinda bored by these debate. They repeat themselves ad nauseam every time we have them. I wish we see new arguments for a change.

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by lomegor on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:34PM (#4139512)
You do realize that by expressing your opinion you opened yourself to the discussion? And I do want to refute your point: some of us do not believe that these private businesses own the culture they or their artists create, and that society has inherent rights to their consumption and distribution.
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tikhonj on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:37PM (#4139530)
Oh yes, I should be able to pick my own business model! What fun. I know: I'll just pay old investors with new investors' money. That may be completely idiotic, but it works. After all, nobody has to invest in my venture! There's always some risk in any investment, so it's only fair.

Now, I'm definitely being too glib. But I think you are as well: it's a complicated issue, and simplifying it down to your view while being almost unbearably condescending helps nobody.

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tptacek on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @07:16PM (#4139678)
The problem with your message isn't that it's glib; it's that it isn't logical. "Just pay old investors with new investors" isn't a business model (it is, obviously, the definition of a Ponzi Scheme). "Pay a licensing fee for XXX" is.
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tikhonj on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @08:19PM (#4139883)
It might be illegal, dishonest and relatively unsustainable, but it is a way to make money. And existing business models (even legal ones) can still be dishonest and unsustainable. It is actually a very similar model to a lottery, except there's more lying involved to get more people to put in more money. So it's just an illegal and unethical business model.

Also, the argument isn't that businesses shouldn't be able to use that model, it's that the government shouldn't be helping with draconian laws.

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tptacek on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @10:42PM (#4140258)
So anything that makes money is a "business model", morally and/or economically equivalent to any other business model? That can't possibly be what you meant to imply.
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tikhonj on Thursday June 21, 2012 @04:11AM (#4141006)
I never implied that it's morally or even economically equivalent to any other business model--nothing says that all business models have to be morally or economically equivalent. But it is a business model very much like an illegal and dishonest lottery (e.g. people put money in with the hope of getting more out).

And yet, despite the fact that it is a business model, society does not condone it. The fundamental point, of which this is a very extreme example, is that there is no inherent right to a business model.

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tptacek on Thursday June 21, 2012 @12:31PM (#4142782)
Look, again, this is simple:

I said something to the effect of "I have a problem with the mentality that dictates other people's business models to them when we disapprove of the one they're currently using".

You responded with a glib comment to the effect of "You're suggesting we have to respect everyone's business models and make sure they work, so everyone should just run a Ponzi Scheme".

It does not take a cutting intellect to see the problem with your logic. Essentially what you're engaging in is the time-honored message- board- forensics tactic of "redefining words to fit your argument". If it makes you feel better to do that, so be it, but the only people you're going to persuade with that tactic are people who don't care what you say as long as it somehow supports file sharing. I wouldn't want to waste my time writing those kinds of comments, but I can't tell you how to spend your time.

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by natmaster0 on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:42PM (#4139553)
They're idiotic because they are not enforceable. It's their own fault for thinking they won't get copied.
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by rhizome on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @09:52PM (#4140092)
By the same token, private businesses who pick their own business models, especially when they all pick the same one, shouldn't be surprised when those models provide, shall we say, less than perfect coverage of the market.

Not only that, but this story is a perfect illustration of someone who has exercised their right to simply not buy music provided under these models. She has a right to this just as much as rightsholders have a right to feed a market failure by not being reasonable in adapting their business models to reality.

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tptacek on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @10:16PM (#4140160)
You know what else provides less than perfect coverage? Pin-tumbler locks. Should we stop prosecuting breaking and entering?
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by rhizome on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @11:11PM (#4140356)
Category error. Pin-tumbler locks work for their purpose, don't they? The current business models for digital music don't, as evidenced by the topic at hand. I'm assuming you know what a market failure is..
Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by falling on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @06:39PM (#4139544)
pg may well say that HN has not become Reddit, but it has.

(yes, my account is less than a year old but this is a fresh start, my other account is 6x older)

Re:NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs by tikhonj on Wednesday June 20, 2012 @08:11PM (#4139856)
I think you only say this because you haven't seen reddit any time recently or you've only looked at a select few sub-reddits.

Perhaps HN is closer to something like /. now, but I don't mind that. But it is really nothing like reddit (or at least reddit's front page).