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Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by adrian_b on Monday August 12, 2024 @04:38PM (#41229047)
It does not matter on what set a tensor field is defined.

A tensor field is not a tensor, but the value of a tensor field at any point is a tensor, which satisfies the definition given above, exactly like the value of a vector field at any point is a vector.

The "fields" are just functions.

There are physics books that do not give the easier to understand definition given above, but they give an equivalent, but more obscure, definition of a tensor, by giving the transformation rules for its contravariant components and for its covariant components at a change of the reference system.

The word "tensor" with the current meaning has been used for the first time by Einstein and he has not given any explanation for this word choice. The theory of tensors that Einstein has learned had not used the word "tensor".

Before Einstein, the word "tensor" (coined by Hamilton) was used in physics with the meaning of "symmetrical matrix", because the geometric (affine) transformation of a body that is determined by the multiplication with a symmetric matrix extends (or compresses) the body towards certain directions (the axes that correspond to a rotation that would diagonalize the symmetric matrix). The word "tensor" in the old sense was applied only to what is called now "symmetric tensor of the second order" (which remains the most important kind of the tensors that are neither vectors nor scalars).

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by abdullahkhalids on Monday August 12, 2024 @05:19PM (#41229437)
> There are physics books that do not give the easier to understand definition given above, but they give an equivalent, but more obscure, definition of a tensor, by giving the transformation rules for its contravariant components and for its covariant components at a change of the reference system.

The definition of a tensor as linear maps, while simple to understand, has no content that is useful for doing physics. To do any physics, or for that matter, any geometry with tensors, you need to define the notion of covariance and contravariance.

Besides, the starting with the latter notions allow you to define tensors more naturally. You start with trying to understand how geometric objects transform under coordinate transformations, and you slowly but surely end up with tensors.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by adrian_b on Monday August 12, 2024 @06:22PM (#41230029)
No, the definition of a tensor as a linear map, is the only definition that is useful for doing physics.

All the physical quantities that are defined to be tensors are quantities used to transform either vectors into other vectors or tensors of higher orders into other tensors of higher orders (for instance the transformation between the electric field vector and the electric polarization vector).

Therefore all such physical quantities are used to describe multilinear functions, either in linear anisotropic media, or in non-linear anisotropic media, but in the latter case they are applicable only to relations between small differences, where linear approximations may be used.

The multilinear function is the physical concept that is independent of the coordinate system. The concrete computations with a tensor a.k.a. multilinear function may need the computation of contravariant and/or covariant components in a particular coordinate system and the use of their transformation rules. On the other hand, the abstract formulation of the physical laws does not need such details, but only the high-level definitions using multi-linear functions, and it is independent of any choice for the coordinate system.

There is a unique multilinear function a.k.a. tensor, but it can be expressed by an infinity of different arrays of numbers, corresponding to various combinations of contravariant or covariant components, in various coordinate systems. Their transformation rules can be determined by the condition that they must represent the same function. In the books that do not explain this, the rules appear to be magic and they do not allow an understanding of why the rules are these and not others.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by cfgauss2718 on Monday August 12, 2024 @07:27PM (#41230518)
I think the point above is that in physics tensor is usually overloaded, and those practicing physicists when they speak of tensors are more often referring to tensor fields, and most often this is in a context with more geometric structure than is required by a tensor space in reference to a vector vector bundle. Typically they (physicists) are dealing with domains where the tensor space is in reference to the tangent bundle of a smooth manifold, with the prototypical example being the metric tensor(field) of space time in general relativity. Another prominent example may include tensor fields defined in reference to the tangent bundle of a group of gauge transformations, as in quantum electrodynamics, quantum chromodynamics, etc.

Obviously these things are not just useful to physics, but are indispensable, and so I think the assertion that only the definition of tensor that is useful to physics is the definition tensor=multilinear map is somewhat out of step. Perhaps it would be better to assert that the concept of multilinear map is essential to every useful definition of tensors in physics.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by abdullahkhalids on Monday August 12, 2024 @11:14PM (#41231859)
> On the other hand, the abstract formulation of the physical laws does not need such details, but only the high-level definitions using multi-linear functions, and it is independent of any choice for the coordinate system.

This is exactly the point. Abstract physical laws must be invariant to coordinate transformation. From a pedagogical point of view, perhaps this is less important when discussing anisotropic media, but critical when discussing general relativity. Hence, the first reason why many physicist book writer think it very important that covariance/contravariance of tensors be central to both their definition and their pedagogy as applied to physics. You have to convince the student that tensors are the right mathematical objects to describe reality because they preserve this invariance.

The second reason is just as important. Physics is nothing without validating abstract physical laws by experiment. And that validation can not be done without computing predictions. Which in turn will require the right coordinate system, which will require covariance/contravariance of tensors. You can't just disregard these computations as unimportant or unnecessary from either a pedagogical point of view or a deeper philosophical one.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by Koshkin on Tuesday August 13, 2024 @05:31PM (#41240070)
> all such physical quantities are used to describe multilinear functions

Why always think of tensors as "functions"? In physics, we often think of them as "quantities" - scalar, vector, etc.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by tacomonstrous on Monday August 12, 2024 @06:08PM (#41229915)
Covariance and contravariance are mathematical notions, and have to do with whether each multiplicative constituent or the tensor is a vector in your given vector space (covariant) or a linear functional on this space (contravariant). There is no inherent physical meaning to either concept.
Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by prof-dr-ir on Monday August 12, 2024 @05:06PM (#41229310)
> The "fields" are just functions.

I think this is far too simplistic, for one because the values of this putative function depend on the chosen coordinate system.

So I completely agree with the comment you are replying to: when a physicist says "tensor" they really mean a "tensor field" and the definition of the latter is quite a bit more involved than just specifying a multilinear map at each point of a manifold.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by adrian_b on Monday August 12, 2024 @06:45PM (#41230197)
The values of the "putative function" do not depend on the chosen coordinate system.

This is the essence of notions like scalar, vector, tensor, that they do not depend on the chosen coordinate system.

Only their numeric representations associated with a chosen coordinate system do depend on that system.

If you compute some arbitrary functions of the numeric components of a tensor in a certain coordinate system, in most cases the array of numbers that composes the result will not be a tensor, precisely because the result will really be different in any other coordinate system, while a tensor must be invariant.

All physical laws are formulated only using various kinds of tensors, including vectors and scalars, precisely because they must be invariant at the choice of the coordinate system.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by cfgauss2718 on Monday August 12, 2024 @07:44PM (#41230626)
Here here! Functions do not depend on your choice of coordinates, only the components of tensors do! I think this is why it’s important to keep covariance and contravariance in mind. While tensor(fields) do not depend on coordinates intrinsically, the way we represent them when doing calculations most certainly does, and this is usefully characterized by co/contravariance.
Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by Koshkin on Tuesday August 13, 2024 @05:41PM (#41240148)
"Here here!" is indeed topological. "Hear, hear!", on the other hand, is conversational.
Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by cfgauss2718 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @10:45AM (#41256756)
I love when grammatical mistakes become unintentional puns
Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by prof-dr-ir on Tuesday August 13, 2024 @11:07AM (#41236209)
In the end tensor fields are sections of a bundle.

I insist that calling them "just functions" is simplistic. In fact, I'd say that the complexity of your elaborations kind of proves my point.

Note that I deliberately use "simplistic" and not "wrong", since a section is a function of sorts.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by mr_mitm on Monday August 12, 2024 @05:15PM (#41229399)
Plus, as if tensor fields on Lorentz manifolds weren't already complicated enough, physicists aren't happy until they can write down some differential equations. So not only are you doing calculus, you're doing it on curved manifolds, with complicated tensor objects, in the context of partial differential equations, which - in the case of general relativity - are non-linear. It's okay to admit that all of this is a bit hard. Hell, as the article points out, Einstein himself had trouble understanding them.
Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by enugu on Monday August 12, 2024 @11:08PM (#41231813)
There is a way of defining a vector space without an explicit basis(just as a set with an addition and a scalar multiplication). Similarly, there is a way of defining a vector bundle without choosing an explicit coordinates (as an abstract vector space, as defined above, which varies with the point in the space).

Just as a (p,q) tensor is a multilinear object related to a single vector space, a tensor field is a section of a tensor bundle associated to the vector bundle. (A section is just a function on the underlying space whose value at a point lies in the vector space above the point.)

Usually, the vector bundle relevant in physics is the tangent bundle of a 4-manifold.

This abstract way of defining tensors and tensor fields is manifestly invariant under coordinate changes, but it takes some machinery to set up. Whereas the 'numbers associated to each coordinate system which transform in a certain way' is more direct, but the rules can seem arbitrary at first sight. Also, maybe this approach can generalize to allow more transformation rules which might take some time to put into an abstract setting.

Standard example is a matrix A which transforms as PAP^-1 (where P is linear coordinate change) vs a matrix T which is a linear map between vector spaces.

The same issue appears in software where you can expose a data structure as a tuple of numbers/string fields and then define functions on them, or you can expose it as an abstract data type where the user of the library can only apply certain functions on them and the implementation author can choose different representations(coordinate changes) in which to easily compute the functions.

Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by cfgauss2718 on Monday August 12, 2024 @06:58PM (#41230319)
Very well, let’s just agree that in physics (r,s) tensors usually refer to sections of the tensor product of some fixed number of copies of the tangent bundle (r copies) and cotangent bundle (s copies) of a smooth manifold (almost always pseudo-Riemannian) and leave it there. Elementary!
Re:The Geometric Tool That Solved Einstein's Relativity Problem by Koshkin on Tuesday August 13, 2024 @05:43PM (#41240163)
This is perfect! Thanks