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Re:Time to Reboot America by russell on Wednesday December 24, 2008 @03:45PM (#409108)
Indeed! I am on the leading edge of the boomers and I can tell you we are just as concerned and just as angry. When I was growing up the WWII generation was lamenting how badly they had screwed it up (Vietnam, etc.) and were hoping we could do it better. Well we didn't and the generation after us, the current screw ups, didn't either. If anyone, I would blame Isaac Newton. His legacy is the mechanical universe and the philosophy the everything is perfectible. Hence the endless series of ideological laws and regulations and deregulations that will fix the problem du jour. What we need to understand is that people are greedy, short sighted, and selfish. They are also altruistic and caring. We need to diminish the unfavorable traits and emphasize the favorable. That's what antitrust and regulation do, keep the destructive side from becoming dominant. But we also need to avoid stifling society by tamping down the ability to innovate.

The fixing of all this is cross generational. If we don't fix it, every one will loose, including those who have it. Have you seen the projections for social security? The angst isn't fatal. We survived the depression of the depression, we survived the post-Vietnam crisis of confidence, and we survived the crisis that Japan was going to suck up all our mojo. (OK the auto industry didn't.)

Re:Time to Reboot America by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday December 24, 2008 @04:03PM (#409123)
"...That's what antitrust and regulation do, keep the destructive side from becoming dominant..."

People game systems. It's odd that you mention Newton -- the idea that some combination of regulations/deregulations will engineer a better economy is why our tax code is currently incomprehensible. Perhaps it might work if we try it again for the 50 thousandth time?

It might be better to look at the economy like a chaotic system, with billions of independent agents all working randomly yet somehow creating a greater whole. The trick is a minimalist yet-changing set of constraints to allow the chaos to continue and be productive. Once you start trying to put it in a box, or choose special parameters, or try to understand or constrain the entire thing in some fashion that you can understand, you're kidding yourself.

My opinion only. I can tell you that history is littered with really smart people, governments, and political parties who thought they could understand/control economics. Sometimes people mistake what I'm saying for laissez-faire or free-market philosophies. It's not. It's simply acknowledging that the over-engineering of things we don't understand usually ends up in stagnation and corruption, not growth and opportunity.

We're in quite a mess now in the U.S. because politicians get elected promising more things than they can deliver. If you ask me, we started heading down this track once the federal government usurped the states back in the 1860s. There's no more sharing of power -- people slowly are figuring out that they can directly vote themselves whatever the government can borrow. No kind of market or tax policy is going to be able to get us out of this larger problem. That's the meta-issue.

Re:Time to Reboot America by davidw on Thursday December 25, 2008 @09:49AM (#409588)
Ok, I think you are really on to something with the "it's impossible to calculate things" (the economic calculation problem postulated by some Austrian economists in the 30ies and 40ies), but where I split from the libertarians is that I don't think that means we should throw up our hands in the air and do nothing at all "gosh, it's too complicated!", but do the most direct, least invasive things to solve those problems that do need to be solved collectively. For instance, I think schools ought to be available to everyone, so that no matter who you are born, you have the means to become who you want. And that doesn't mean "just let the free market do it". I think introducing some market mechanisms might make sense - lessening the power of the teachers' unions and giving more money to good teachers - but I very strongly believe that even though most of our economy ought to be decided by a free market, not all of it should. I think that lack of simplicity grates on a lot of nerd/geek types who want a clean, simple, beautiful rule that will make everything work. However, people are messy, complex, contradictory creatures that don't function in a world of black and white.

If I'm not mistaken, this is similar to the Warren Buffet view of the economy: yeah, get the government out of the market where it makes sense, let the market do its work, but then whoever wins needs to share some of that with the poorest in our society.

Re:Time to Reboot America by DanielBMarkham on Thursday December 25, 2008 @10:04AM (#409591)
I agree mostly with everything you said, but I would put things differently.

I think this all revolves around what the person means by "free market" Some people think this is a "free-for-all" while in fact a free market is usually regulated to some fashion to make it free (by guaranteeing private property rights and tort law for contract enforcement, if nothing else) So free market definitely does not mean lack of government support/definition/intervention.

Taking, for instance, the health insurance industry in the U.S.. I'm in favor of the government defining simple levels of insurance coverage, say from A to F. A would be total coverage for anything that went wrong (including preventive care). F might be catastrophic care only, with the guarantee that life-saving measures do not bankrupt the family (even is some measures might be denied).

In this case, the government can and should intervene to create the open market. Currently policies are so obfuscated by legalese that consumers effectively have no choice. In details-rich markets, like lending, insurance, airline fares, etc, the government can make the market freer by simply providing _simple_ standard categories of service.

As far as direct intervention in social systems, such as education, I think most right-leaning libertarians such as myself would support those interventions that directly related to things the government absolutely had to do. Education falls into that category because the need of a national army requires a standard of education. Health care in general is a very tricky area. We're developing life-saving cures for our elderly that cost more than the person made during their working years. I find it very hard to believe people in a democracy are going to vote for their own early deaths, so as a practical matter some kind of political appeasement needs to be made with the public at large, free market or not. I'm still thinking this one through.

The danger is taking a complex system and oversimplifying whether on the "leave it alone and everything will be fine" side or the "hey, we can engineer this thing to do whatever we want" side. It's way too complex to work like political slogans want us to believe. I think we're in agreement on this point.