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Re:The Death of NYC Congestion Pricing by timr on Friday June 28, 2024 @12:39AM (#40817771)
I don't care if it moves prices one millionth of a penny, or ten dollars. That billion dollars of extra MTA revenue was coming from somewhere, and it was mostly going to come from locals, even if it meant that we're all paying a fraction of a cent more per sheet for toilet paper. The worst taxes are the ones that are regressive and secret.
Re:The Death of NYC Congestion Pricing by buran77 on Friday June 28, 2024 @04:06AM (#40818650)
> I don't care if it moves prices one millionth of a penny, or ten dollars.

That's how a discussion starts being meaningless. Do you apply the same logic to everything else, at least in your argumentation?

Everything you do has the "millionth of a penny" influence on something but you will tend to discard those effects particularly because they're small enough to not be meaningful in any way. Except when you don't like the argument, and then the millionth become the cornerstone of your rebuttal.

How many times higher is the cost of other externalities, having the extra traffic in the city in terms of road fatalities, general health decline, increased maintenance needs, and so on? I'll bet it's not millionths it's millions. It's even more hidden and costs way more so why do you prefer it?

Re:The Death of NYC Congestion Pricing by ilya_m on Friday June 28, 2024 @03:09AM (#40818423)
> The worst taxes are the ones that are regressive and secret.

In my book, negative externalities are worse than taxes. If we agree that a car driving in Lower Manhattan inflicts a non-trivial cost on everyone else, then not taxing it leads to socially inefficient outcomes.

Effectively, locals are paying a price either way - either by having their bus moving slower, inhaling fumes, etc, or by buying goods and services that reflect congestion pricing. The difference is that congestion pricing aligns incentives - for instance, delivery drivers may choose to travel to Manhattan during the off-peak hours whereas in the status quo they do not care at all about inconveniencing others.

Re:The Death of NYC Congestion Pricing by imtringued on Friday June 28, 2024 @05:44AM (#40819087)
People don't grasp that you can get wealthier simply by avoiding harmful things that would otherwise be done by default.
Re:The Death of NYC Congestion Pricing by throwaway7ahgb on Friday June 28, 2024 @08:46AM (#40820090)
OP wasn't arguing about "cars", it was specifically about service vehicles that are required for Manhattan operations.

Thought experiment: If we could somehow ban private residential use of all cars and only allow "work" vehicles, there would be no congestion and no tax.

Re:The Death of NYC Congestion Pricing by neilknowsbest on Friday June 28, 2024 @12:38PM (#40822341)
There are some good arguments against that. It creates a deadweight loss by banning high utility private uses of the car (driving kid to hospital) and instead there would be an increase in low utility "work" uses of the car (delivering a single banana to a bodega). There is a parent out there who would be willing to pay $X to drive their kid to hospital, and a work vehicle user who would forgo paying $X by staying off the road, but under a blanket ban that won't happen.

It would also increase the incentive for people to play games like claiming their personal car as a "work vehicle", throwing a little advertising decal on the side, things like that.