News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by ChuckMcM on Thursday June 07, 2012 @01:48PM (#4080305)
Another interesting batch of comments. Generally a lot of hating on Monsanto (which is exploiting the fact that genes can be patented).

This "story" is part of a bigger conversation going on. The outcome of which is very much up in the air.

The conversation we're having is "Should it be allowed for individuals, or companies, to patent genetic sequences?"

On the 'for' side we have people like Monsanto who make the claim they invest billions of dollars in creating 'products' that would not occur naturally in a reasonable amount of time, and having made that investment they deserve the limited monopoly granted by the patent system. We also have testing companies who have invested billions in diagnostic tests to identify diseases which are tied to certain genes and they too feel it is right and proper to give them protection so that they might re-coup those costs. In both their cases their argument is that it is for the greater good of the society that these temporary monopolies are granted, to encourage the investment needed to come up with these inventions which will permanently be a benefit going forward.

We also have groups of people who are arguing that this is an abuse of the patent monopoly because the processes are not 'man made' they are simply natural processes that have been tuned by man to create a desired result. Generally folks recognize the benefit, but they don't wish to pay the fees.

Consistently, the courts have sided with the folks who did the investment because, as the Canadian supreme court pointed out, the people see the benefit too so the argument that its good for society is a well supported.

The monkey wrench of course is the question of innovation flexibility. In both the patent and copyright systems there is an implied flexibility rule, which is that if "you" the non-inventor/creator don't like it, you are free to create your own version with your own resources. So if you don't like the patent on the automobile you are free to construct your own vehicle that has the same function of transportation, but doesn't infringe on the claims. This breaks down when their is not flexibility and that was very clearly elucidated by Judge Alsup in the Oracle vs Google case where he held that the APIs, which were constrained to be written in a specific way (no flexibility), could not be copyrighted, because doing so was contrary to copyright law, where he wrote "copyright law does not confer ownership over any and all ways to implement a function or specification." And there is a similar argument to be made against genetic patents. One cannot simply create 'another' way to make plants resistant to a particular herbicide, because that particular herbicide attacks particular plant functions which are expressed by specific genes. So there is no 'wiggle' room around other people wanting to create the same capability without infringing the patent.

I expect it is this questions, "What are the considerations of the economic good or harm in locking out others from using a particular 'law of nature or natural process'?" Clearly there is an economic good in being able to farm efficiently, there is a harm in that even if you were a grade a geneticist you couldn't get around using the same genes Monsanto did so there is no avenue to compete. There are only alternatives, like weeding the old fashioned way.

If you're wondering, farmers have one of the strongest voices in our government. This is because there are a lot of states that have farmers in them (so there are a lot of representatives from farm districts). They have literally changed the course of rivers to take water from urban users and water their fields, they have been paid not to plant crops, their crop prices have been subsidized to insure they make a living, and their excess product has been bought up with the tax payer's money and distributed for free. So it isn't like Monsanto is the gorilla here.

I don't think the original article added a lot to the conversation sadly. I would love to see additional analysis and alternatives being discussed.

Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by fleitz on Thursday June 07, 2012 @02:02PM (#4080410)
"herbicide attacks particular plant functions which are expressed by specific genes. So there is no 'wiggle' room around other people wanting to create the same capability without infringing the patent."

I don't think that's true, immediately I'm thinking of enzymes that could cleave the herbicide, or making plants resistant to a different herbicide.

Monsanto is primarily a maker of herbicides not GM crops, GM crops are a compliment to it's business and Monsanto designs plants to work well with their products. If you want to use a different herbicide and a different gene sequence you're completely welcome to, what your not allowed to do is use a specific genes that confer resistance to monsanto's own products.

I think the parallel development of eyes in many species proves that nature is rather flexible in how solutions can be implemented.

It's completely possible to make herbicide resistant plants with out infringing on Monsanto's IP. It just might be a little more difficult to make one for RoundUp.

Also, the Roundup Ready soybeans patent is due to expire in 2014, so in 2 years farmers all around the world get Roundup Ready soybeans for free, just as the patent system intended. By the time this gets infront of a judge the farmers could go plant all the patented crop they want.

Monsanto makes a tidy profit on the development, farmers eventually get the seed for free, Monsanto sells lots of roundup, which pollute the environment less than other herbicides, win, win, win.

Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by brazzy on Thursday June 07, 2012 @04:23PM (#4081135)
> Also, the Roundup Ready soybeans patent is due to expire in 2014, so in 2 years farmers all around the world get Roundup Ready soybeans for free, just as the patent system intended.

Unless Monsanto suddenly stops selling Roundup and instead sells a different, "new and improved" herbicide with a new set of recently-patented resistent seeds. And lobbies for governments to ban Roundup because of a recently study saying it's a threat to the environment after all.

At least that's how it tends to work in the pharmaceutics industry.

Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by hexagonal on Friday June 08, 2012 @05:32AM (#4083455)
Glyphosate's ("Roundup") patent expired in 2000.

This isn't really like the software industry, where there's lock-in effects. Unless you screw up, glyphosate still kills plants.

Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by brazzy on Friday June 08, 2012 @09:40AM (#4084088)
Thus the "And lobbies for governments to ban Roundup because of a recently study saying it's a threat to the environment after all." part.
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by JunkDNA on Thursday June 07, 2012 @04:03PM (#4081060)
Came here to make a similar point: not only could you make a plant that produces enzymes that cleave the herbicide, you could make a plant that expresses efflux pumps that pump the herbicide out of the cells, making the plant immune as well. This mechanism is used by cancer tumors and bacteria to resist all the crap we throw at them trying to kill them. I suspect there are a multitude of ways to make Round-up resistant crops.
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by ChuckMcM on Thursday June 07, 2012 @02:12PM (#4080464)
An excellent point. That would certainly be a point in Monsanto's favor. I am not sure I could say the same about the BRCA1 gene for breast cancer diagnosis though. That too is patented. Which reinforces for me how complex this issue is. We often discuss software patents (and as "practitioner of the art" :-) I can relate.) but I am not a biologist, much less a geneticist.
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by fleitz on Thursday June 07, 2012 @02:30PM (#4080563)
Yeah there are definitely points on each side. I wonder too how difficult this stuff is to skilled people, I wonder if there is a biohacker news where people laugh about the triviality of making something resistant to round up, like the triviality of 1 click purchasing.
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by skosuri on Thursday June 07, 2012 @02:45PM (#4080628)
I wish there was a biohacker news. While the idea is pretty trivial. Showing that it worked, getting it into plants and getting it to work well, and then getting the products through the pretty significant regulatory hurdles is not trivial.
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by earnon on Thursday June 07, 2012 @03:27PM (#4080878)
Is it the farmers who have a powerful lobby, or the food processors, such as Monstanto and ADM?
Re:5 Million Farmers Sue Monsanto for $7.7 Billion by washedup on Thursday June 07, 2012 @05:23PM (#4081411)
That question sheds light on many contemporary issues