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Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by noodle on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @11:14AM (#407687)
yes, well, coding and novel writing have opposite goals.

i'll show you. i optimized a classic for you.

lord of the rings: evil guy makes magic ring, loses it, good guys get it and he dies when they eventually destroy it.

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by Eliezer on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @01:01PM (#407855)
"Omit needless words!" -- Strunk

Read The Elements of Style to find out how novel writing works. Using fewer words is just as much a part of writing as using less code is part of programming.

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by qaexl on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @05:04PM (#408150)
Elements of Style teaches you how to write clearly and concisely. It doesn't teach you how to write a novel.
Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by jacobolus on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @11:34PM (#408512)
Your statement is narrowly true, but if you mean to imply that would-be novel writers wouldn’t benefit from internalizing Strunk & White, or that they need not worry about clarity or economy, then I disagree.

Eliezer’s point that careful word choice is essential to good writing applies just as much to novels as any other format.

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by qaexl on Wednesday December 24, 2008 @05:35PM (#409192)
I think authors would benefit from Elements, though like all strategies, should not be taken as ideology. Apply where necessary. Even Hemmingway did not stick to strictly minimalism.

We can also go off on a tangent, and talk about how Strunk & White was published right at the end of the Victorian era, when WWI essentially wiped out the Romanticism ideals of that era. Something similar happened in America after the American Civial War. Mark Twain's writing became darker, gritter -- clearer -- when compared to his earlier works. Post-Civil War, no one wanted to trumpet the glories of war. It took the Europeans another seventy years to catch up. (My little excursion falls apart because both Strunk and White were Americans).

I could compare this to martial arts training. Newbies are aweful to look at. They have so much wasted motion. Economy of movement suggests mastery of the art form. Masters condense sophistication into simple movements, fully aware of their potential. They do not merely have simple movements.

My main point though, is that there are other skills in writing novels not found in Strunk & White. Good expressive technique does not make a good story. I may agree that Elements is worth using. I don't agree it is the only guide you should study.

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by noodle on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @04:56PM (#408144)
using fewer words is not the same as optimizing for the fewest words possible.
Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by SapphireSun on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @08:13PM (#408329)
That's like saying I have built a completely generic website producer, all you have to do is code the rest of it to make it suitable for your needs - ie, there is no useful website yet.

Writing SHOULD be concise and readable. The difference for novel writing is that you should know what parts of the story are important and write just enough to accomplish your purpose. In the case of Tolkien, it was the journey and environment that were important, thus the deluge of words.

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by jd on Wednesday December 24, 2008 @12:54AM (#408553)
The best shortest short story is still by Hemmingway:

"For Sale: Baby shoes, never worn"

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by sanj on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @11:37AM (#407728)
Frodo survived.

It was Gollum that died. I'm not sure anyone considers him a "good guy".

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by noodle on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @11:49AM (#407747)
the "he" is in reference to the singular evil guy, maker of the ring, who dies. the "they" reference the plural good guys, who do not.

clearly, i forgot to add comments

Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by palish on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @01:31PM (#407896)
Well, that's what happens when you oversimplify. Unexpected bugs! :)
Re:Ask HN: How do you deal with mental illness? by nsrivast on Tuesday December 23, 2008 @11:51AM (#407753)