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Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by roenxi on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:03AM (#40678674)
I looked for some reliable numbers on Apple's tax payment and didn't find any, so I won't comment on that, but I do want to say some things about...

> capital gains tax exists but is deferred until you sell the shares and then rich people don't do that

This gets pretty quickly into the philosophical what-are-we-doing-here-exactly of taxes, but:

1) Shares don't do very much on their own, so there isn't really a problem with that. I mean, dude owns a billion in shares - if they earn income dude will pay tax, if they don't the only true to get to the value is to sell them.

I imagine there are some gaping loopholes involving charities and debt, but that isn't anything to do with the deferment of the tax.

2) Because of inflation - and asset inflation is markedly higher than CPI - CGT is effectively a wealth tax because fairly quickly most of the value of an asset is the inflationary component. I've got gold bars where I allegedly am making a 100-and-something% return and that just flies in the face of the inert reality of the metal itself. The tax is markedly unfair, anyone trying to be a responsible saver ends up paying much more of their income in tax than someone who just spends it on the day and it effectively becomes a wealth tax that stops anyone in the middle class moving up over time. Moving wealth between assets is catastrophic to your financial health once CGT is a factor.

There are a bunch of quirky distortions in the tax system. CGT might even be one of the contributing factors to why people don't tend to have savings (although the biggest factor is probably psychology). Rationally speaking saving is quite an inefficient use of money if you end up paying CGT.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by cipheredStones on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:31AM (#40678823)
> 1) Shares don't do very much on their own, so there isn't really a problem with that. I mean, dude owns a billion in shares - if they earn income dude will pay tax, if they don't the only true to get to the value is to sell them.

Are you aware of the "buy, borrow, die" strategy? In short, you can borrow against the value of appreciated assets to get income during your lifetime, then pass the assets (and the debt) on in inheritance, and your heirs don't have to pay any capital gains tax because of cost-basis step up when they sell the assets to pay the debt. You effectively avoid any taxation on the appreciation.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by robertlagrant on Friday June 14, 2024 @06:23AM (#40679403)
You don't need shares for this - you can be mortgaged up to the hilt and pass on the house to your heirs when you die, and they sell the house to pay off the mortgage.

But all the money you borrowed needs to have been spent, or it's subject to inheritance tax (or paying back the debt it came from), and all that spending needs to be on things that are taxed with VAT, with employees providing services you buy who are paying income tax, and the businesses you're buying from paying corporation tax, etc etc. Tax is never avoided; it's just paid through other means.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by AnthonyMouse on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:34AM (#40678844)
But this is kind of my point. Capital gains tax is a dumb tax, it mostly screws middle class people and creates several perverse incentives, and we'd be better off to use a simple consumption tax instead. The argument against this is supposedly that "rich people" are the ones who pay capital gains tax, but in practice "rich people" are the ones in the best position to avoid paying it using fancy accountants and cross-border shenanigans. The middle class people actually paying it wouldn't be any worse off with a consumption tax that lacks all of those perverse incentives, and might even end up paying less because then the super rich would pay the same rate as they do instead of a lower one.
Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by pydry on Friday June 14, 2024 @06:42AM (#40679501)
Consumption tax screws the working and middle classes the absolute most because they consume the most as a % of their income.

There's a reason it was pushed mostly by billionaires.

LVT is the most egalitarian tax. It's completely unavoidable for land owners, renters pay nothing at all, it skews highest on the biggest landowers and it doesnt disincentivize productive investment or productive work.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by IX-103 on Friday June 14, 2024 @09:22AM (#40680690)
LVT ignores that there are other resources that may be hoarded. In particular, companies can hire all the employees with the skills necessary to build a competitor and have them do busy work to avoid having to innovate or compete on the merits of their products.

This is essentially the same thing as buying up land and leaving it fallow, but with human resources instead of land. In some ways this is worse, as society has already invested in training those workers.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by pydry on Saturday June 15, 2024 @08:45AM (#40689448)
Employees are not a finite resource. Pay enough to hire half of the chartered accountants and that will drive the creation of more. Demand follows supply.

Land is finite. Buy half of all the land and that won't exactly drive the creation of more land will it? It'll just drive up the price of existing land.

This is in a nutshell why some things in America are dirt cheap (e.g. electronics, clothes) while houses keep getting more and more absurdly priced.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by AnthonyMouse on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:15PM (#40684646)
> Consumption tax screws the working and middle classes the absolute most because they consume the most as a % of their income.

This is the rich corporation PR that I'm talking about.

So here's Richie Rich not spending most of his income, but also not selling any shares unless he wants to buy something. In fact, he doesn't sell shares even then, because instead he borrows money to buy things, so there are never any capital gains. Without a consumption tax he pays no tax at all.

But you're saying we need this tax, whose practical effect is to tax middle class people on the inflationary component of asset price increases, because they spend more of their income. Instead you want to tax middle class people on their income. But then what benefit do they receive by using an income tax which immediately taxes all of their income?

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by pydry on Saturday June 15, 2024 @08:38AM (#40689419)
Please. Corporations would LOVE to zero out corporation taxes and replace them with a consumption tax.

For years Steve Forbes the billionaire was the face of "the consumption tax". You dont get richer or more corporate than that fucker.

I dont want to tax the middle classes on their income either. It's regressive just not AS regressive as a consumption tax.

I want a land value tax.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by anamax on Saturday June 15, 2024 @01:49AM (#40687766)
> It's completely unavoidable for land owners, renters pay nothing at all,

In this world, renters pay all of the expenses incurred by land owners via a payment we call "rent".

Note that LVT discourages diverse development. You see an empty piece of land that should be filled with condos. I see an open space that lets me see something other than condos.

Re:Land value tax in online games and virtual worlds by pydry on Saturday June 15, 2024 @08:37AM (#40689407)
In this world renters already pay a 100% land value tax. Levy a land value tax on landlords and renters will neither pay more nor less. It's already baked into market rent.

There is law, economic or otherwise that a business has to make a profit. With an LVT you cant profit from land speculation only providing a good, well maintained property which uses space efficiently.

LVT does not discourage diverse development. It only discourages land hoarding and inefficient use of land (e.g. San Francisco's one family homes).