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Re:Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors by pjc50 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @07:57AM (#40668542)
So .. this seems to reflect the problem of a set of very carefully hedged statements that touch controversial topics, but people are aware that if they give a yes/no agreement to the qualified version, it will be turned into a declaration that they agree with a whole bunch of qualifier-removed or indirect-consequence versions of the statement. So it's dangerous to answer honestly because your answer will be used against you.

For example:

> “Transgender identity is sometimes the product of social influence.”

I think you could find trans people themselves who might to some extent agree with that - I've more than once heard of people who knew themselves to be deeply miserable before ever hearing about transness, then discovering it, finding it "clicked", transitioning, and becoming much happier as a result. Does that qualify as "social influence"? They might not have transitioned if they hadn't known it was a possibility.

There are then two political views derived from this:

- the rightwing view that people should be prevented from knowing about the possibility of transness, especially as children, in order to discourage them from transitioning

- the leftwing view that, as part of the totality of the human experience, it is useful to include a description of it in the education given to children to help them understand their own process of puberty

But all sorts of things could be said to be "social influence". "Eating healthily is sometimes the product of social influence". "Turning up to events on time is sometimes the product of social influence". "High income is sometimes the product of social influence" (there are entire books sold on this thesis!)

The statement on its own is a semantic trap for assuming a whole bunch of things follow from that statement which can then be used to condemn people who agree/disagree with it.

Re:Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors by Akronymus on Thursday June 13, 2024 @08:35AM (#40668899)
> I think you could find trans people themselves who might to some extent agree with that - I've more than once heard of people who knew themselves to be deeply miserable before ever hearing about transness, then discovering it, finding it "clicked", transitioning, and becoming much happier as a result. Does that qualify as "social influence"? They might not have transitioned if they hadn't known it was a possibility.

I don't think that is what is meant with the statement, but rather, that they mean the people are identifying as trans due to their peers, rather than actually being dysphoric.

As an anecdote, for me that's almost what happened, but I was just miserable for other reasons (depression). In todays climate of affirmation being seemingly the only socially acceptable choice, I likely would've started transitioning and become even more miserable.

This is one of the reasons why I REALLY dislike the current paradigm of affirmation first, rather than actually checking whether the problems are caused by dysphoria or something else.

Re:Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors by pjc50 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:28AM (#40669405)
> the current paradigm of affirmation first

I think this is massively overstating how widespread affirmation is, at all, and also lacking any assessment of what proportion of people is "some".

Re:Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors by amanaplanacanal on Thursday June 13, 2024 @08:59AM (#40669097)
Isn’t that something that should happen between the unhappy person and their psychologist/psychiatrist/medical doctor though, rather than the rest of us?
Re:Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors by Akronymus on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:13AM (#40669243)
Yes. Sadly, these days there is a ton of social pressure to affirm first and foremost. For example, a parent who doesn't affirm a child can easily get into hot water [1]

Along with that, the constantly repeated claim of puberty blockers being totally reversible (They are only in the medical sense, as in hormone production goes back to normal, but that claim still misses the fact that the time spent with reduced hormones has a measureable effect on the development of the child, as in, you won't "catch up" on puberty) is leading to more and more kids being treated with puberty blockers without a proper evaluation, because "there is no harm in it".

Yes it ought to happen between a professional and the person. And the real world is still a messy place where you can be influenced by non-professionals.

[1] https://www.dailysignal.com/2022/02/11/new-canadian-law-coul...

Re:Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors by Y_Y on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:54AM (#40669676)
I understand where you're coming from, but I think that strict reading of the statement, that the identity is the result of the influence is materially different to what you're talking about. That is, I think "authentic" transness is popularly considered an innate characteristic, you are born this way even if you don't realize it until later in life. If the identity is the product of social influence then the implication is that it is not entirely innate, that you are claiming to have been born a particular way, but only because you have been misled by outside forces. Put another way, you can be told about transness online and realise you were always that way, but then the identity isn't the "product" of the social influence. (I know this comes down to fiddly definitions, and reasonable people may differ.)