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Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by nurple on Thursday May 16, 2024 @01:07PM (#40380688)
Thanks for bringing these topics up, I find the raft of evidence quite compelling. I also find it quite interesting how much pushback on alternative hypotheses there is from the mainstream scientists. I even attempted to have a conversation with GPT4 about the possibility that ancient humans created the pyramids, and it told me I was being RACIST! Like, what?

The thing that sells me, besides the erosion, is the absolutely astonishing artifacts that were left behind. There is no way I could be convinced that hand-driven bronze tooling was cutting diorite to a precision we would struggle to meet today, carving schists so thin you can see light pass through, absolutely perfect symmetry, and creation of granite stoneware with multivariate surface geometry that we'd be unable to do without a precision-destroying tool change.

I find the tool marks on the partially excavated obelisk in Aswan particularly compelling. It's like they had technology that could scoop granite like warm ice cream.

One person doing somewhat interesting research here and other ancient sites is Ben from Uncharted-X. He brings a lot of first-hand content and analysis of areas many can not access, though it is pretty light on conclusions (probably for the best).

As an example, this geometric analysis of a pre-dynastic vase carved from granite belies the capabilities of a forgotten generation of this planet's inhabitants: https://unsigned.io/log/2023_02_24_Initial_Geometric_Analysi...

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by roywiggins on Thursday May 16, 2024 @01:17PM (#40380804)
> The thing that sells me, besides the erosion, is the absolutely astonishing artifacts that were left behind. There is no way I could be convinced that hand-driven bronze tooling was cutting diorite to a precision we would struggle to meet today, carving schists so thin you can see light pass through, absolutely perfect symmetry, and creation of granite stoneware with multivariate surface geometry that we'd be unable to do without a precision-destroying tool change.

The explanation is pretty simple: with sufficient effort and skill, it's possible to produce extraordinary works of precision. You cannot underestimate what people can do with sufficient patience and expertise.

However, each artifact is going to be different, because they're hand-made. If you found half a dozen objects that matched each other to extreme precision, you'd have a more serious case- that's the sort of thing you expect to need machine tools for.

One very good way to debunk this stuff is to look at the best stuff that came out of the Renaissance: we know, for certain, that they weren't carving that stuff with power tools.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by nurple on Thursday May 16, 2024 @04:07PM (#40382549)
So your view is that these pieces are modern forgeries? It's _maybe_ possible we could create something like this with today's machinery, but if you're saying some ancient person with enough time could create these, it's just not the case. It's not just that I don't believe a determined human can do amazing things, but it's just impossible to create the precision these cuts show without measurement tools almost more precise than we have the capability to make today.

There were thousands of vases like this found beneath the bent pyramid.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by mikhailfranco on Friday May 17, 2024 @01:15PM (#40392106)
Three of the most amazing sculptures you will ever see, all produced in 1753 AD ±1 year, and all in one small chapel in Naples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Sansevero

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by tootie on Thursday May 16, 2024 @03:32PM (#40382209)
I can't find the video, but I recall watching this on TV when I was younger. They found an ancient abandoned quarry site in Egypt (same one?) and brought in someone to test cutting and drilling granite with copper tools and it worked. The trick is using sand in between the copper and the granite.

Here's some still photos and captions: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting.ht...

The thing that made Ancient Egypt so special and so historically significant isn't that they had amazing technology. It's that they built a coherent culture, religion, language and government. The vast construction projects they undertook were achievable because they could field massive armies of laborers and keep them provisioned for years. They built these massive structures by dint of having lots of food and secure borders.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by nurple on Thursday May 16, 2024 @03:59PM (#40382468)
It actually didn't work. They were barely able to scar the surface with a jagged janky cut after many hard hours of hard work, and they weren't even attacking the hardest types of stone we see things created from. It's just not possible these tools were used to create the amazingly accurate pieces you find in Egypt, fashioned in some of the hardest materials we know.
Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by tootie on Thursday May 16, 2024 @04:50PM (#40382959)
https://youtu.be/zoOCcrgWkIA?si=qfsrmduoc7qgzSp7&t=188

He cuts it pretty sharp here. And then shows a technique for smoothing imperfections. Also a lot of the stones weren't actually cut perfectly. Only the ones that were on visible surfaces. The technique was probably slow and laborious, but the Egyptians had huge numbers of workers and they spent years or decades on projects.

I'm not sure what the counterargument even is. If the Sphinx was built using super ancient metal tools, where are they? And how did Egyptians make granite carvings all over their empire over the span of millenia? They obviously knew how. We know it's possible. We just don't know for sure how they specifically did it and maybe never will.

It was only a few years ago that we solved the mystery of Roman concrete.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by nurple on Friday May 17, 2024 @01:01AM (#40386548)
Ben addresses these experiments and compares the results to actual artifacts. https://yewtu.be/KFuf-gBuuno?t=462
Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by tootie on Friday May 17, 2024 @11:02AM (#40390690)
Utterly spurious. The toolmarks don't match the experiment and therefore it was another civilization? Just stupid. They may have used a different type of grist for their drills. They may have had a technique for smoothing them after the hole was cut. They may have just been so practiced in their art that they were just better at it than anyone who tries to replicate it today by guessing. We have unequivocal evidence that cutting and drilling granite with available material was totally possible. We don't know and probably never will know for certain how exactly they worked. But it's 100% plausible they did it themselves with technology and resources available at the time that matches all the correlated evidence. There are carved granite and schist artifacts in Egypt spanning thousands of years during which they kept lots of written and artistic records and interacted with dozens of regional cultures all of whom are well-attested. Accusing the scientific mainstream of being to stuck in their orthodoxy to accept an alternate theory is rich coming from someone who believes a wildly implausible theory with nearly religious fervor and rejects all the physical evidence in front of his face in favor of blind faith. Bring some proof beyond pure conjecture and then maybe we'll be convinced. Go read about pre-Clovis people in the Americas. The orthodoxy that had stood for decades was upended pretty quickly when new evidence was uncovered.
Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by masklinn on Thursday May 16, 2024 @05:42PM (#40383601)
> It's just not possible these tools were used to create the amazingly accurate pieces you find in Egypt, fashioned in some of the hardest materials we know.

The pyramids are almost entirely made of limestone. Limestone is around a 3.5 on the mohs hardness scale.

The scale goes up to 10 (diamond).

Granite (king's chamber, sarcophaguses, plugs) is around 6, 6.5.

Guess what's above that? Quartz. AKA your common desert sand.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by Hikikomori on Thursday May 16, 2024 @08:40PM (#40385133)
Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by nurple on Friday May 17, 2024 @12:51AM (#40386498)
Very impressive, but the Egyptians supposedly didn't have the ability to form steel; also the holes were not chiseled, they were drilled leaving spiral striations that witness an incredible feed-rate.

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KFuf-gBuuno

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by Hikikomori on Friday May 17, 2024 @06:00AM (#40388198)
They don't need steel to work with these materials though, as copper is enough for even granite. https://youtu.be/yyCc4iuMikQ

World of Antiquity has debunked several unchartedx videos, including the supposed spiral striations. https://youtu.be/n_NguZUDku4 https://youtu.be/Wcl82hQr8xc

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by nurple on Friday May 17, 2024 @04:45PM (#40394046)
Yes, it's interesting isn't it, how everyone is debunking eachother, and that hasn't changed much from the days of Petrie. Doesn't seem like the "science", after all these decades, is solid and settled yet whatever timeline you believe.
Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by Hikikomori on Friday May 17, 2024 @05:42PM (#40394457)
One side has scholars and educated people and the other are charlatans and grifters.
Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by mc32 on Thursday May 16, 2024 @01:18PM (#40380812)
I think we have to take into consideration the "entertainment" aspect of lots of these theories. Like UFO theories, such and such monster, bigfoot, etc., they are for entertainment. People make money off of these things. The more plausibility and uncertainty they add, the more money they make. Some suffer from delusion as well.

Archeology and Paleontology have evidence for things millions of years ago, yet do not have evidence for Ancient advanced civilizations.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by sampo on Thursday May 16, 2024 @01:45PM (#40381136)
> Like UFO theories, such and such monster, bigfoot, etc., they are for entertainment.

Many astronomers and physicists have engaged in speculations about extraterrestrial life. They also use some radio telescope time for SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) projects.

Re:Egypt's Pyramids May Have Been Built on a Long-Lost Branc... by mc32 on Thursday May 16, 2024 @01:55PM (#40381250)
Extra-terrestrial life does not mean Alien Vehicles at super-light speed darting in and out of the atmosphere or nerosphere. It means looking for signs of life forms on other planets or planetary systems. We could have alien life on Mars, Io, extra-solar planets, etc. They search for that.