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Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by chii on Thursday April 04, 2024 @11:53AM (#39932003)
> better than most rechargeable battery technologies

you can't compare heat storage to electricity, because you can't directly use heat for anything else other than for heating, where as electricity can be used to perform motion.

If you used heat storage as a battery, there's an additional loss when converting to electricity.

However, if the heat is cheap/free during summer, storing it for winter is a no brainer.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by datameta on Thursday April 04, 2024 @12:07PM (#39932237)
The sand is gravity-fed into a heat exchanger which transfers the heat to a fluid that drives a combined cycle turbine, in this case. I'm curious what the conversion loss is here.

To add to that, what is the energy expenditure of building the battery compared to sand containment plus heat exchanger and turbine - i.e. mining, refining, transport, manufacture, delivery?

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by robviren on Thursday April 04, 2024 @12:18PM (#39932403)
Gas turbine efficiency targets for combined cycle are targeting 65%, so loss is at least 35%. To me I the loss sucks, but if it can be cheap to build and maintain it matters less. If solar is the energy source and that gets driven cheap enough then that loss could be acceptable.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by NavinF on Thursday April 04, 2024 @12:31PM (#39932627)
No way you'll get 65%. This sand won't be stored at the same temperature as a natgas generator's combustion chamber. Efficiency depends on delta T.

I'd guess 20%

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by regularfry on Thursday April 04, 2024 @12:40PM (#39932758)
They're estimating over 50%, apparently. The sand is stored at over 1000 degrees. Not combustion temperatures, true, but also nothing to sniff at.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by adrian_b on Thursday April 04, 2024 @03:52PM (#39935016)
Nope.

The report says that the sand will be heated up to 1200 Celsius degrees.

This is much higher than the maximum temperature for steam turbines and equal to the temperature of the gas in the best gas turbines.

Therefore they will use a combined cycle, first a gas turbine will use hot air passed through the sand and the exhaust from the gas turbine will produce steam for a chain of steam turbines with decreasing working temperatures.

There should have been no problem in reaching a 65% efficiency for the conversion from heat to electricity, except that between hot sand and a gas burner there is the same difference as between an electric capacitor and a battery, while heat is extracted from the sand, it cools down.

Presumably, when the sand becomes too cold, the gas turbine is bypassed and the hot air just produces steam. When it becomes even colder, I suppose that the first steam turbine is also bypassed and only the low-temperature steam turbines are used.

This will lower the average efficiency, probably to around 50%. If the residual heat (after the steam turbines) had been used for heating or for cooling (i.e. heat-powered air conditioning), the efficiency could have been higher, e.g. over 80% in the beginning, while the sand is still very hot.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by credit_guy on Thursday April 04, 2024 @08:04PM (#39937312)
I did not read the report, but one way you can improve the round trip efficiency is to not let the sand cool below, let's say 1000 °C. You pay a one-time penalty of heating the sand to this temperature and then you operate the storage only between 1000 and 1200 °C. This reduces the capacity of the "sand battery", roughly by a factor of 6. But sand is (reasonably) cheap.

I have seen another proposal where instead of sand the material would be graphite, which can be heated to more than 2000 °C. Graphite also has a huge heat conductivity. But it's more expensive.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by zizee on Thursday April 04, 2024 @11:17PM (#39938358)
Sand has the added benefit over graphite of being nonflammable.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by datameta on Thursday April 04, 2024 @11:33PM (#39938436)
Sand will also benefit from greater insulation due to lower packing efficiency and therefore more air.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by ajb on Thursday April 04, 2024 @06:25PM (#39936554)
IIUC there is a physical limit from thermodynamics in converting back, based on the temperature. So when efficiencies are quoted, it could be either the proportion of input energy retrieved, or the proportion of the theoretical max efficiency achieved. I'm guessing you're quoting the former?
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by Scoundreller on Thursday April 04, 2024 @12:27PM (#39932579)
Doesn’t even need to be seasonal.

Plenty of times+places where you only need heating at night and still have some net electrical draw (because the sun isn’t shining at night).

Also, cold fronts move in with a lot of wind, but then it can stay cold a few days with calm winds until a warm-front moves in.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by politician on Thursday April 04, 2024 @12:37PM (#39932712)
Nit: Rechargeable batteries have a loss when converting the chemical energy stored inside to electricity. There’s no free lunch.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by cogman10 on Thursday April 04, 2024 @02:09PM (#39933949)
Yes, but for Lithium and sodium batteries you are looking at 90+ efficiency.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday April 04, 2024 @01:16PM (#39933265)
Is a battery electricity or is it a chemical reaction?
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by westmeal on Thursday April 04, 2024 @01:17PM (#39933266)
you kinda can with sterling generators I think
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by inetknght on Thursday April 04, 2024 @01:35PM (#39933518)
> you can't directly use heat for anything else other than for heating, where as electricity can be used to perform motion.

Maybe today. But NASA has some interesting metal tires [0][1] which might change your mind for the future.

[0]: NASA info https://technology.nasa.gov/patent/LEW-TOPS-99

[1]: Neat youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSNtifE0Z2Q

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by quickthrowman on Thursday April 04, 2024 @01:49PM (#39933708)
> you can't compare heat storage to electricity, because you can't directly use heat for anything else other than for heating

You can use heat to generate steam that can spin turbines to perform work. But, I am not sure if it’s practical to generate steam from a sand battery, my background is in electrical construction. I’m guessing the sand battery isn’t nearly as hot as a natural gas steam boiler’s combustion chamber.

https://www.johnsoncontrols.com/en_sg/hvac-equipment/chiller...

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by smallmancontrov on Thursday April 04, 2024 @02:09PM (#39933954)
Is absorption refrigeration bad enough to be permanently non-viable here? Or is it "just" a matter of scaling a niche technology?
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by bumby on Thursday April 04, 2024 @02:48PM (#39934329)
Define "bad enough" in more specific terms.

I believe it largely depends on the application. If you have a lot of waste heat, it's potentially a way to get "free" refrigeration. (e.g., a paper plant that uses a lot of steam can use absorption chillers to make use of waste heat.) If fuel is much cheaper than electricity, it can be economically viable. Peak shaving can save lots of money. etc. But it's probably not competitive purely in terms of energy efficiency or GHG emissions.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by smallmancontrov on Thursday April 04, 2024 @03:18PM (#39934644)
If I had exact figures, I wouldn't need to ask for anyone's intuition. Thankfully, ChatGPT was willing to work with me, and I will summarize the results here.

Typical refrigeration COP (Coefficients of Performance):

Absorption refrigerator: 0.6-1.2

Compressor refrigerator: 1.5-4.0

Estimated TES economic advantage: 1.1-2.5x

Conclusion: yes, absorption refrigeration is probably inefficient enough to make it a long shot in this application. The only way I can see it becoming viable is if extremely hot TES can completely change the efficiency game, and then only just.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by bumby on Thursday April 04, 2024 @04:06PM (#39935189)
The temperature in TFA are outside the range of most commercial absorption chillers, so this is more about making cheap electricity. I would imagine absorption would be more applicable if the same tech was used to generate lower-quality heat that's not suitable for a combined-cycle generator.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by smallmancontrov on Friday April 05, 2024 @10:49AM (#39943065)
> outside the range of most commercial absorption chillers

"Off the shelf" isn't a constraint here, sort of the opposite: I'm trying to imagine the space of things that are physically possible but not yet commercially mature. Theoretically, higher temperatures mean more possible efficiency. That's the one ray of hope in otherwise dismal efficiency figures that are currently only viable, as you point out, if the heat is ~free.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by bumby on Friday April 05, 2024 @07:45PM (#39948625)
>Theoretically, higher temperatures mean more possible efficiency.

I think you might be conflating a few things here. For a cycle to produce electricity, that's correct. But the mechanism of absorption chillers is fundamentally different. The chemistry of the materials and their phase change temperatures are definitely a constraining factor. Could you, in theory, develop some other absorbent/refrigerant that works at those higher temperatures? I suppose, but I would suspect there are much easier ways to get efficiency gains.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by stcredzero on Thursday April 04, 2024 @02:23PM (#39934091)
because you can't directly use heat for anything else other than for heating

There's Stirling Engines. If the solar collection is pure thermal, and if that collection and the storage can be made dirt cheap, then the 37% or so efficiency of conversion to electricity stops being a problem. But what are currently problems with Stirling Engines -- Hardly any of the industrial optimization has been applied to them Re: Wright's Law. So they are quite costly! Heat pipe solar thermal could be made dirt cheap through economies of scale, and it works very well, even in climates like England's.

I could envision house construction changing to include sub-basements which are just polystyrene insulated boxes filled with sand. By over-provisioning storage by 4X, houses in cold climates could have huge electrical power stores, especially in summer. (Especially if the house uses heat exchangers which can draw directly from the thermal store.)

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by usrusr on Thursday April 04, 2024 @02:24PM (#39934108)
But that doesn't really matter before all heating demand is served from storage. Sure, heat will never be the be all end all of energy storage, but there's a lot of demand in places that have winter. On top of this, when the conversion to heat is done by heat pumps, you not only get the benefit of a warmer baseline during the conversion, you also get some free cooling while charging.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by adrian_b on Thursday April 04, 2024 @04:06PM (#39935195)
Heat can be used directly not only for heating, but also for cooling.

There are air conditioning systems that are powered by heat, not by electricity.

There are places where the power plants use the residual heat from the generation of electricity not only for heating during the winter, but also for cooling during the summer, by producing chilled water.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by autoexecbat on Thursday April 04, 2024 @04:32PM (#39935462)
> There are air conditioning systems that are powered by heat, not by electricity.

How does that work?

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by xkcd-sucks on Thursday April 04, 2024 @05:01PM (#39935765)
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by quickthrowman on Friday April 05, 2024 @01:53PM (#39945198)
Either absorption refrigeration or a steam turbine that compresses the working fluid.
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by jaggederest on Thursday April 04, 2024 @06:58PM (#39936858)
Half of all primary energy usage is for heating purposes. Heat is the best format to displace, as well, since a significant chunk of all that primary energy use is direct fossil fuel combustion right now.

Especially since you can use heat to drive a heat pump, which ends up actually achieving above unity efficiency effectively since the heat input is used to move additional heat from the environment. Even if it's inefficient, if the heat would otherwise have been wasted, it's a net benefit.

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by Tagbert on Thursday April 04, 2024 @07:07PM (#39936936)
The Pernell with heat compared to electricity is portability. It is easy and efficient to transmit electricity but heat is not
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by pimlottc on Thursday April 04, 2024 @07:18PM (#39937031)
> The Pernell with heat

Did you mean to type "problem"?

Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by Tagbert on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:59PM (#39946508)
yes, but somehow it got "corrected" to Pernell. I'm not sure who Pernell is or why they would be relevant to the discussion. :-)
Re:US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy ... by specialist on Thursday April 04, 2024 @07:04PM (#39936914)
Thermovoltiacs, converting heat dirctly to electricity. IIRC, At least one of the "box of rocks" thermal battery startups (interviewed on the Volts podcast) intends to have both a two way heat exchanger and electricity play.