News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by AlexandrB on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:01PM (#39705661)
This is an article written by someone who has no idea what they're talking about:

> Until now, previous attempts to convert evaporation energy into electricity have suffered from a low-conversion efficiency. But using the drinking bird method, scientists have managed to generate an output of 100 volts using just 100 millilitrers of water, enough to power small electronic devices.

I would take it with a huge grain of salt.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by gertrunde on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:12PM (#39705774)
For me it was this line:

> In the natural world, evaporation occurs when sunlight warms the surface of the Earth, breaking the bonds which hold water molecules together.

Which is... sort of not inaccurate, but feels like it implies a misleading concept, and makes me think the author copied it without understanding it.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by thaumasiotes on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:23PM (#39705905)
> Which is... sort of not inaccurate

Really? Do puddles not dry up at night?

My impression was that evaporation occurs because that's just the way liquid behaves. It's more important that water molecules are really small than that they experience sunlight. Temperature-based evaporation is "boiling", and sunlight doesn't make a meaningful difference there, as far as water goes...?

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by quesera on Thursday March 14, 2024 @01:00PM (#39706373)
> because that's just the way liquid behaves

That's almost worse than the original! :)

Water evaporates because their energy (heat) causes the molecules to bounce around and sometimes escape the cohesive attraction of their friends and into the air. More energy, more evaporation.

This works well with small water molecules, less well with larger and heavier liquids.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by BoiledCabbage on Thursday March 14, 2024 @03:52PM (#39708239)
> escape the cohesive attraction of their friends

Hmm, could you call this mysterious "cohesive attraction"

> the bonds which hold water molecules together.

...? If not, then please do describe this cohesive attraction.

I've come to realize some people just like to complain on the internet.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by quesera on Thursday March 14, 2024 @04:42PM (#39708715)
The "bonds which hold water molecules together" are, I think, the covalent bonds holding the Hydrogens to the Oxygen.

Evaporation does not break those bonds, it's just the intact molecules energetically escaping the surface tension of the liquid.

(Disclaimer: My high school chemistry books have not left their shelves in many years, except when moving.)

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by BoiledCabbage on Thursday March 14, 2024 @05:29PM (#39709198)
"Surface tension in water owes to the fact that water molecules attract one another, as each molecule forms a bond with the ones in its vicinity."

Surface tension is a bond that binds water mold together similar to how mortar holds bricks together in a wall.

Mortar doesn't make the brick solid, but it holds the bricks together.

People are reading bond in two different ways. Bond within a molecule vs bond between molecules.

1. https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/surface-tension-forms-a-st...

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by paholg on Thursday March 14, 2024 @06:48PM (#39709882)
This conversation is a very clear sign that the article is poorly worded. If it takes this much discussion to get at its meaning, it's probably not communicating clearly.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by IanCal on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:48PM (#39706216)
> Temperature-based evaporation is "boiling"

I don't think that's true for naming, but regardless warmer water evaporates quicker.

And the statement doesn't say evaporation doesn't occur for other reasons, though the wording feels like it implies it.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by chlorion on Thursday March 14, 2024 @01:25PM (#39706657)
Hair dryers and clothes dryers both operate by adding a bunch of heat to the thing they are trying to dry. I am not a physics expert but that seems to suggest that heat helps speed up evaporation!
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by Turing_Machine on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:33PM (#39706030)
The phrase "breaking the bonds which hold water molecules together" can be interpreted two different ways.

1) Breaking the covalent bonds that hold individual water molecules together, preventing them from splitting into two hydrogen and one oxygen atom. That's clearly not true.

2) Breaking the hydrogen bonds that stick one water molecule to another, keeping the water in liquid form. That's true.

In any case, it's poorly phrased.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by thaumasiotes on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:42PM (#39706141)
Is that right? Molecules with no polarity can still form liquids. It happens all the time; we call those liquids "hydrophobic" (or, most commonly, we call them "oils"). The hydrogen bonds aren't what's keeping the water in liquid form.

Cooking oil, notably, will not evaporate the way water will -- if you spill it somewhere, the oil will mostly just stay wherever you left it until you clean it up -- but my understanding was that this is because oil molecules are huge and heavy while water molecules are tiny.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by thedanbob on Thursday March 14, 2024 @02:08PM (#39707145)
There are a number of forces that allow molecules to form liquids/solids, the hydrogen bond just happens to be the one that acts on water. If my memory serves it's the London force for non-polar molecules.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by bilsbie on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:54PM (#39706292)
If the air can hold more water at its temperature it will pick up more water.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by thesuperbigfrog on Thursday March 14, 2024 @01:12PM (#39706500)
It depends on the liquid's vapor pressure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_pressure) and temperature relative to the surrounding environment.

I am very skeptical how much usable power could be generated using the 'drinking bird' approach. Show me the engine or generator that the drinking bird powers . . .

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by recursive on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:10PM (#39705753)
Among whatever other problems there are here, volts are not a measure of energy or power. The units don't make sense.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by bilsbie on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:53PM (#39706280)
Plus the water isn’t an input/consumable.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by mrguyorama on Thursday March 14, 2024 @04:47PM (#39708759)
At least that confusion is a "normal" one in terms of pop-literature talking about energy. Every "new" energy scam talks about the voltage gradient generated as if it is meaningful, with zero information about the state of the circuit generating that voltage.

I will never understand how insanely ignorant the average person is about electricity when every single electrical object in the US comes with label that concisely and accurately describes how much voltage and current it uses, and you get billed by the kWh, and the equation that pulls all this together is literally a simple multiplication, and I've struggled to put two transistors together in a circuit every single time I've tried to learn analog electronics!

It feels like watching that early internet video of the lady that couldn't figure out that if you are driving 60 mph, you drive one mile a minute. I want to be clear, I'm saying this as someone who struggles with doing basic dimensional analysis in high school physics. I cannot comprehend the willful and purposeful ignorance that most people seem to carry throughout their lives.

I don't think people do enough recreational math or unit conversions. My STEM trained friend recently expressed surprised at how much chicken "2 kg" is, and I just don't get it. 1 pound is close enough to 500 grams as to not care about the actual conversion! Same as 1 meter = 1 yard, and 1 qt damn near equals 1 liter. I know my brain is broken compared to most, but how do you live without figuring these things out?

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by williamcotton on Thursday March 14, 2024 @06:21PM (#39709630)
2.2 lbs to kg.

39 inches to the meter.

3.79 liters to 4 quarts.

1.6 km to the mile.

* 9/5 and + 32 for C to F.

I think those are correct? I think I was made to memorize those at some point, but of note, I am also an immigrant to the US from a wacky metric system nation.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by zackkatz on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:02PM (#39705683)
Agreed. This article makes it sound like this is a perpetual motion machine.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by BobaFloutist on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:11PM (#39705770)
The laws of thermodynamics apply in closed systems, and our planet is not a closed system.

Solar power, geothermal power, hydro power, are effectively perpetual motion, for our purposes. Heat pumps kind of violate the "you can't get something for nothing" principle too, since you can get >100% return on the electricity you put into them. The more we look into renewables, the more we can find ways to "cheat" by using "preprocessed" goods where the sun or the earth already did the hard part for us.

There's no thermodynamic reason you couldn't have a small device on your desk that uses ambient heat, moisture, light, etc to store energy that you can use to do work, just engineering and chemical reasons it's hard to do this on a scale that's relevant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer is over 100 years old and, if kept in sunlight, can provide "perpetual motion" for "free".

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by thaumasiotes on Thursday March 14, 2024 @01:24PM (#39706653)
> The laws of thermodynamics apply in closed systems, and our planet is not a closed system.

> Solar power, geothermal power, hydro power, are effectively perpetual motion, for our purposes.

I get solar power and hydro [also solar] power, but isn't geothermal power a closed part of the system? Where does solar input feature in that?

> The more we look into renewables, the more we can find ways to "cheat" by using "preprocessed" goods where the sun or the earth already did the hard part for us.

This is also a closed part of the system. If the argument you're making is "the planet is not a closed system", then you need to be using energy that comes from outside, not energy that is already contained in the system.

Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by BobaFloutist on Thursday March 14, 2024 @04:34PM (#39708643)
The sun is arguably ultimately responsible for geothermal. Even if geothermal is part of the closed system, it's still functionally perpetual motion for our purposes. The main argument I'm making is that perpetual motion* is, for all practical purposes, possible, as long as you're willing to be specific, and you're unconcerned with the heat death of the universe (none of us should be concerned with the heat death of the universe).
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by Turing_Machine on Thursday March 14, 2024 @12:35PM (#39706052)
Right. I can generate an output of tens of thousands of volts by scuffing my feet on the carpet, but I won't be replacing Hoover Dam any time soon.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by sonicanatidae on Thursday March 14, 2024 @01:23PM (#39706631)
The size of the salt "grain" required would crush any mortal man/woman/LargeAnimal and leave a 100m wide, 50m deep, divot in the ground.
Re:The 'drinking bird' makes a comeback and could power gadg... by quickthrowman on Thursday March 14, 2024 @04:43PM (#39708724)
> This is an article written by someone who has no idea what they're talking about:

Agreed, ‘output of 100 volts’ is meaningless without knowing the current.

Edit: Looks like it puts out 3.6 microwatts (0.0000036 watts) at 100v, or (assuming single-phase) 0.000000036 VA