The internment of Japanese Americans cannot be justified by “end justify means” arguments. If those people were executed by the US, Your argument would still work.
Ethics and morals may be nuanced, but fortunately something that comes pretty easily to most humans. One must do done serious mental gymnastics to not listen to the heart. There are grey areas, but not so much in this massacre. There scariest realization for the world is that our death switch is at the hands of unstable humans. We, collectively, may already be more screwed than we perceive.
We must hold the IDF to the same standard as we hold Hamas. Neither is allowed kill civilians, neither is allowed starve a population, neither is allowed detain civilians (whether as "hostages" or "administrative detainees"), neither is allowed to commit rape, neither is allowed commit war crimes.
The issue is that the IDF is much worse than Hamas on all these things:
- Israel has killed 30,000 (though the number is suspected to be as high as 50,000 now, and it continues to increase), while Hamas killed 700 civilians (I'll leave aside the very credible claims that Israel killed a good number of it's own)
- Israel has a much worse ratio of civilians to valid military targets (possibly between 5/1 and 8/1 ratio, while Hamas has 2/1 ratio during Hamas' attack, and it is believed many of those were killed by the IDF)
- Hamas has only killed civilians during the Oct 7 attack. Israel is killing hundreds of civilians per day, and has used rhetoric that indicates this is deliberate [4]. Even Biden, who claims he is a zionist, called Israeli bombing of civilian areas "indiscriminate" [5]. There are plenty of videos online of the IDF killing civilians, including today an old deaf man was killed by a soldier, and congratulated by his squad [11].
- Hamas has apologized for killing civilians; Israel has justified killing and claims it can and will continue to do so, including by denying aid (a war crime)
- Israel denies aid to civilians, directly causing a famine; Hamas does not starve civilians
- Hamas has by all accounts treated its detainees well; Israel tortures and rapes and sexually abuses its detainees [1]
- Israel is deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure (it claims Hamas is hiding there, which does not excuse it and this is a war crime)
- Hamas has been alleged to have committed a total of 3 acts of sexual violence (this is heavily disputed, see [2]). However the IDF has committed dozens of acts of torture [9] and rape [1] (this is only counting since Oct 7, but Israel has been killing, torturing and committing sexual violence against Palestinians since 1948, eg [12] )
- Hamas took 250 detainees, Israel had over 1000 before Oct 7 [10] and it increased to over 2000 since Oct 7 [3]. After releasing detainees as part of the short ceasefire, Israel recaptured some of the same people. An Israeli sniper shot a child who celebrated the return of a family member.
- There are multiple credible reports of execution of civilians by the IDF outside of combat situations (that is, they came into a place, expelled the women and children, and executed all the men and older boys) [6] [7]
- Israel has been killing thousands of Palestinians for years, including thousands in Gaza in 2021 and 2014, and of course 15,000 killed and 750,000 displaced in the massacres during the original invasion of Palestine by the settlers who created Israel. [8]
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-isra...
[2] https://www.oct7factcheck.com/sexual-violence
[3] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-ho...
[4] https://isitgenocide.com/)
[5] https://apnews.com/article/biden-israel-hamas-oct-7-44c4229d...
[6] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/20/palestinians-accuse...
[7] https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/1/18/video-s...
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
[9] https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6153/
[10] https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention/statistics
[11] https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17664047969095886...
[12] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/4/10/anger-erupts-over-v...
To restate: why is Hamas' attack on Oct 7 bad? It's because they killed civilians. If we condemn that, then we must condemn all the IDF killings of civilians. If we do not, what basis do we have to condemn Hamas?
Israel's killing of civilians is a horrendous war crime. No we are not doing a carve-out because they really want to kill Hamas fighters. Absurd and horrific to suggest that.
https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-...
1 in 100 people have been killed in gaza since october 7th.
Entire neighborhoods have been leveled by bombs and bulldozed.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middlee...
All this and you are saying it's up for debate that that they are trying to kill civilians.
Generally the areas leveled and bombed were evacuated from civilians. Yes, there were definitely many cases where civilians died from bombs but your statement is not relevant in the way you claim it is.
If you were Israel, and you have 40,000 combatants in Gaza that want to rape, kill and mutiliate your citizens, and say they will never stop, hold hostages, what do you do? Do you have a magical solution that removes them from the fortified, full of tunnels and booby traps Gaza?
So yes, it's totally up to debate. I am sure there have been cases of civilians being targeted. I am also sure that the finger on the trigger is very light on the Israeli side. But this is very different than intentionally targeting civilians as a matter of policy. There is plenty of proof that is not the case, civilians have evacuated under IDF security from many parts in Gaza and were not killed. Hamas does not differentiate civilians from combatants, uses child combatants, and while maybe the total number is in the ballpark the details are manipulated. This is not to excuse or make light of the heavy price of this conflict in human life.
I know, now we're going to unravel the entire conflict. Talk about Israel's right wing crazies and government, Occupation, resistance, apartheid, genocide, open air prison, etc. No we don't need to unravel the entire conflict. We can judge this from Oct 7th because the significance of that event in scale and barbarism eclipses the entire conflict. If you want to unravel the entire conflict I'm happy to do that too.
Based on what? Killing 200 people per day? Bombing people that are evacuating their homes after telling them to do it?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-wa...
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-13/israel...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-g...
Israel's plan to "destroy" Gaza comes from "the highest level of state", the UN's top court has heard.
200 people per day is also not a reasonable metric. Would you prefer a 100 people per day over twice the time? Why do you think this means anything? There were many days in the war in Ukraine where more people died per day under completely different conditions and ofcourse the total number of people killed in that war is significantly higher as well. War. Look at comparable campaigns like the Battle of Mosul. And yes, I already acknowledged many civilians died from bombs and Israel after Oct 7th is certainly concerned less about that than before Oct 7th, but still following the rules of war and not targeting civilians intentionally. If there are 40,000 combatants scattered in a densely populated area and in tunnels and they're being attacked from the air with hundreds of bombs/day what are the expected civilian casualties? Do you think Israel should have done nothing? Would anyone else? Do you think Israeli ground forces should have walked into the area without bombing it so they can get slaughtered/ambushed/blown up? Israel would like nothing better than not having had to have this war.
The number of dead people is terrible, and the fault for all this lies squarely on the Hamas. The total number and the breakdown of civilians/combatants is not really known at this point. I don't trust the numbers from Hamas because they are motivated to manipulate them as is evident by us having this discussion. But for sure many people have died which again is terrible. But reducing the argument to "Israel kills people Israel bad" where provably nobody else in this world would do any different (See 9/11 or the war against ISIS) and provably Hamas initiated this cycle of violence and the evidence (despite your list) is that Israel isn't waging this war in a way that deviates significantly from other wars is an emotional response, not a rational one. We know why people aren't having these responses to the conflict in Yemen where 400k people were killed, the conflict in Syria where IIRC one million people were killed, or many other bad things going on in the world, it's because the media is pumping photos of Gaza destruction 24/7 and couldn't give a damn about what's going on anywhere else (including Ukraine).
I am going to answer your first question in good faith despite you not reciprocating. It's based on my knowledge of human nature and similar war circumstances. Anyone fighting in these situations would have a very light trigger finger because the difference between you being dead and the enemy being dead depends on that. You just have no idea what's going on in the ground, the tactics being used by Hamas etc.
EDIT: there have also been many friendly fire incidents and lots of IDF soliders killed by IDF fire, and the famous incident of the hostages being killed by the IDF. This is again indicative of the "light trigger finger" (because otherwise it's you that's dead) and the tactics used by Hamas.
I'm showing you real information from multiple worldwide news sources. You are writing huge paragraphs with no links to try to ignore a genocide in progress while repeating unsourced propaganda like "Gaza that want to rape, kill and mutiliate your citizens"
When you kill 1% of a population you are imprisoning in four months, destroy their homes, hospitals, infrastructure and water sources then kill people trying to bring them aid, that's genocide. If this was reversed you would call it genocide. If it was happening anywhere else you would call it genocide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qaxLu-e6I
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/31/1222337109/the-israeli-army-a...
https://www.msf.org/attacks-humanitarian-workers-gaza-make-v...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/israeli-airstr...
Your "unsourced propaganda" comment is offensive bullshit, but here are some sources:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/oct-7-sexual-violence-united-n...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-hamas-used-sexual...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-at...
https://theintercept.com/2023/12/24/feminism-sexual-violence...
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/uk/2024/02/03/hamas-raped-a...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13005021/october-ge...
https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-sexual-violence-octobe...
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/08/world/middleeast/hamas-se...
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israeli-activists-say-worl...
https://news.sky.com/story/womens-genitals-systemically-muti...
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/witnesses-confirm-rap...
https://www.algemeiner.com/2023/12/29/horrific-new-evidence-...
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sj62yy7na
https://nationwideradiojm.com/bbc-hamas-raped-mutilated-isra...
https://themedialine.org/headlines/special-report-on-deliber...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-f...
How many people need to die before you call something genocide?
Islam does not allow killing of civilians in war, so this would surprise me. I googled for it and haven't found anything other than pro-Israeli groups saying it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha...
If Islam does not allow the killing of civilians then what exactly happened at the Nova festival or in all the settlements attacked on Oct 7th?
Hannibal Directive: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
"16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
Also you know that quote is from the Quran, which takes precedence over the Hamas Covenant...
Hamas killed hundreds using suicide bombers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_at...
What about ISIS? Al Qaeda? PIJ? Taliban? I'm not even going to count the millions of civilians killed by civil wars in Muslim countries. The idea that Hamas won't kill civilians because it goes against Islam is so ridiculous and disconnected from reality that I don't think we live on the same planet.
Hamas continues to attack and kill civilians, intentionally, throughout. Including after 2017. Including Oct 7th. You can't seriously say you Googled this and it doesn't exist.
Here's how many civilians were killed before Oct 7th:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-o...
Indiscriminate rocket attacks against civilians:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-rocket-and-...
"Wiesenthal Centre Alert: "Hamas Charter 'Fatwa' to Murder all Jews Still in Effect" " - https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-centre-aler...
Just tell me how many references you need and I'll find that number.
EDIT: You should also watch footage from Oct 7th and listen to the testimonies of survivors. Hamas raped and mutilated civilians. They live streamed and filmed some of their actions. They called parents on the victims phone to show them they're killing them. Hamas threw hand grenades into shelters where civilians were trying to hide. It burnt civilian houses down to kill the families hiding inside them. It is a diabolic, fanatical, psychopathic, evil entity. This claim that somehow Hamas doesn't target civilians is just - crazy.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-...
You assertion is also ridiculous because it ignores the order in which things happened. First Hamas attacked civilians. Then Israel responded. During that response civilians were killed.
Israel's killing of civilians is a war crime only under certain conditions. Killing of civilians during war isn't automatically a war crime. If there are war crimes, then we should certainly condemn them.
Pay attention to "circumstances" which don't look different from how a terrorist outfit operates; here's one such recent occurrence: https://twitter.com/MatanGolanPhoto/status/17665864005587395...
This "war" reeks of barbaric assault not on militants that can barely counter a modern military, but civilians who have no protection.
Some see things like this [0] and chalk it off as cost of war or whatever, and are not outraged or worse justify it, but they can't demand the same of others.
> This isn't curious conversation; it isn't even conversation
Agree. Due to the conflict's very public nature, the narratives have deep-seated irreconcilable differences mixed with a good dose of racism/supremacism/moralism, while the moderate voices are the most feeble, because they're also outnumbered [1].
[0] https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1766912143444656544
[1] https://twitter.com/AdlerJoelle/status/1766974185094492610
The IDF ratios are indeed atrocious. For journalists, for example, in another thread I tried to calculate some detailed estimates, and concluded that given the casualties up to 01/03, if one journalist and one Hamas militant were statistically put side by side, IDF is ~3x more likely to shoot the journalist. See:
Part I: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39603300
Part II: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39603311
Part III (Python source code): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39603322
If you want to argue with someone who said any of that, find someone who actually said it. Pointing out that Israel is an inherently inequitable ethnostate should have made it pretty clear I'm hardly trying to "absolve" Israel of anything, and that's not the only clue in my comment.
If you're having trouble parsing out what I actually said, you're welcome to ask actual questions rather than rhetorically leading ones (much less wildly putting words in my mouth).
You might also find how I responded in another branch helpful:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39662944
as well as meditating the difference between speaking in terms of the understandable and the excusable.
> Finally, to be clear the protest is of a Google exec by a Google employee over a google policy/contract which is part of the IDF's murderous policy.
You might imagine Google has leverage (that perhaps a sufficiently large number of employees could apply themselves to) with Israel to get them to abandon their current policy by threatening to withdraw from their contract. It's pretty likely that they don't, even assuming what Google provides isn't fungible.
One of Hamas' goals is apparently to provoke Israel to continue to kill civilians in hopes that it ruins Israel's relations with various western institutions. If that starts to actually work even with smaller stakes players like Google, it's likely enough they'll do more of what works.
And it actually gets traction fairly easily because there are people in the Israeli government who, as you point out, apparently prefer unrestrained aggression as a strategy for advancing various internal agendas. And some of them have the talent for actually consolidating internal power as international criticism and isolation increases.
This conflict is happening both because real grievances provide the groundwork and because there are actors on both sides of the conflict who genuinely think they have something to gain from acting as they have since October, even in the face of unconscionable slaughter (which can, after all, be converted to grievance fuel). The United States government can barely bring to bear pressure that restrains it. The idea that Google can do much seems even thinner.
(I agree, by the way, that Israel has responded in ways that are wrong morally and probably wrong strategically. It's similar in some ways to US mistakes post 9/11, and our eventual transition to more focused counterterrorism criminal and military ops seems to have worked out much better for us, though Israel has enough plausibly different problems I'm sure there are some apples and oranges.)
Why is one a humanitarian tragedy but the other an unnacceptable attack. You're trying to absolve Israel of its role in the killing of 30,000 civilians over 5 months, to the condemnation of the entire world.
Israel is not entitled to kill civilians under any circumstances, not even if Hamas makes it hard to attack Hamas directly. If you look at the statements of Israeli leaders, it is clear that the killing of Palestinians is intentional [1]. As has been the long policy of apartheid and annexation of the West bank (where, you might remember, there is no Hamas).
Finally, to be clear the protest is of a Google exec by a Google employee over a google policy/contract which is part of the IDF's murderous policy.
[1] https://isitgenocide.com/