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Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by s_dev on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:18PM (#39631566)
Or the blackmailing by Hungary and Turkey.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by vajdagabor on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:06PM (#39633250)
Blackmailing by Orban and his party, not Hungary.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by berner on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:41PM (#39633684)
A country that is not in a civil war that has majority support owns the crimes it runs on.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by the_why_of_y on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:05PM (#39633977)
When Fidesz won their first election in 2010, they changed voting laws and even the constitution; now elections in Hungary are heavily gerrymandered and Fidesz routinely wins super-majorities with less than 50% of the votes.

https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/how-viktor-orban...

Nonetheless, in 2014, five center-left parties formed the Unity Alliance. One center-left party (LMP) refused to join, splitting the center-left opposition vote. This cut in half the number of constituencies that the opposition would have won that year, allowing Fidesz to capture 91 percent of the constituencies with just 45 percent of the vote. Still plagued by infighting, the opposition remained fragmented in 2018, even as it gained strength in Budapest. With 49 percent of the vote in 2018, Orbán won 86 percent of the constituencies, losing in Budapest but winning almost everywhere else. The 2014 and 2018 results showed that only a unified opposition that spanned the political spectrum could defeat Orbán’s system.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by xdennis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:40PM (#39633672)
Fair enough, but he's been in power for 18 years (1998-2002, 2010-present). He couldn't do that without widespread and lasting support.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by vajdagabor on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:21PM (#39634143)
No, people supported them, but that is because democracy was hacked. Hungary is not a democracy anymore (it's a hibrid regime[1]).

The biggest issue is that the majority of the media is controlled by the government. Also they own jurisdiction and have been gradually rewritten the constitution. Most people who support this regime do that because they believe the propaganda. Many people I know have been bitterly trying to tell their family members that they are watching / listening propaganda (unsuccessfully, for years). Most of Orban's supporters don't know much about politics, they just want to live their lives, so they believe whatever is on TV, radio, online media, posters, etc. For many it is very hard to see what is true and what is lie.

But there are many, many people here who don't like this and want a change. The country is in a state where positive change towards democracy is really hard at the moment, many of us still want to believe it is possible.

By the way, we could see this madness around the world in the past years: Brexit, Trump, Bolsonaro… many people can be led by their nose. Not just in Hungary. I really whish if people would learn from Hungary's mistakes, and don't let the same thing to happen in their countries.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_regime

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by t0bia_s on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:51PM (#39634440)
Or maybe people just agree with this politics. Clearly, you and your source of information don't.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by vajdagabor on Thursday March 07, 2024 @04:26PM (#39634772)
Do you mean, some people just consciously agree with being used and lied to and their taxes being stolen so that the leaders can be richer and more powerful while schooling, health care and economy is in decay? I don't think so.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by sobkas on Thursday March 07, 2024 @05:01PM (#39635089)
> Do you mean, some people just consciously agree with being used and lied to and their taxes being stolen so that the leaders can be richer and more powerful while schooling, health care and economy is in decay? I don't think so.

Many people actually do that, because in their minds alternative is "left" that will do the same but with added bonus of supporting LGBT, fight against climate change, unrestricted immigration and such. And getting traditional true patriot of country X rich is preferred to fattening this dirty commies traitors on the "left".

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by t0bia_s on Saturday March 09, 2024 @01:15PM (#39653626)
Also, there is 1/3 of population that don't believe in politics at all and ignore it as much as possible, because artificial culture war just distracts them.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by vajdagabor on Sunday March 10, 2024 @02:41PM (#39661434)
Yes, however those people also have right to vote (in democracies) and many of them vote without being sure what they vote for. Democracies can be hacked because too many people are either not interested or not informed well enough to vote for what's really best for them and the country.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by t0bia_s on Sunday March 10, 2024 @02:57PM (#39661574)
Why would they participate in system that they don't believe? Also, you need to be populist to win in democracy, which brings another pathological behavior into game by definition of system.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by reducesuffering on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:46PM (#39634405)
That's not an indicator of support, look at Lukashenko, dictator of Belarus.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by jajko on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:38PM (#39631908)
Its funny with Hungary, Orban is such an incompetent ruler that currently Hungary is paying way above market prices for gas from Russia. So much for being friends with benefits with russia. You can see how it all is a series of really not that smart moves for Hungary for a long time, borderline treason.

And one point generally - please lets stop calling whats happening in Ukraine in any other way than War. putin's war - its a perfect name I'll keep repeating till it sticks around, or I'll die trying.

Its relatively personal to me, my home country (former Czechoslovakia) was basically enslaved by russian cough cough soviet forces for decades, people shot or electrocuted when trying to escape (around 500 recorded officially), tens of thousands murdered in other indirect ways (gulags or uranium mines with no ticket back, or just beaten to death in some cold dungeon). I see basically 0 change from that russia to modern one and how it values things like human life, freedom etc.

It looked briefly better, much better, but those times are over for good and russia is firmly back at cold/not so cold war with whole western world. Currently trying to subvert quite a few places in Africa. I hope western 3-letter agencies are few steps ahead.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by ProjectArcturis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:49PM (#39632114)
This comment really illustrates the hollowness of the "NATO expanded too aggressively" claim. NATO didn't force any of these ex-Soviet countries to join. They ran to join NATO as soon as they could. They'd experienced living with the Russian boot on their neck, and they were eager to join a collective security organization to prevent it from ever happening again.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by yencabulator on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:52PM (#39633822)
I have a different perspective. If NATO hadn't expanded to Turkey, Sweden and Finland would have had a much easier time not being blackmailed. NATO expanding to essentially-dictatorship countries was too eager.

And yes, I understand Turkey's geographical position giving it power over sea routes, and why that was desirable to NATO. But choosing to include a fickle ruler in a unanimous-decisions-only organization is just asking for trouble.

(The Baltics wanted in on NATO, and it's good that they got in. They're largely decently run small countries in a tough spot, not world stage bullies.)

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tga_d on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:12PM (#39634043)
To be clear, Turkey has been undergoing pretty decisive democratic backsliding since the mid 2000s. It was added to NATO at the same time as Greece, and at that time, Turkey was the more democratic of the two countries (see, e.g., the electoral democracy index for 1952 on https://v-dem.net/data_analysis/CountryGraph/ ).

edit: note if you're trying to find Turkey by searching on that site, it uses the endonym Türkiye

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by orwin on Thursday March 07, 2024 @04:25PM (#39634754)
Türkiye is probably the first western country to not secure its demographic dividends, with maybe Greece (hard to say because the EU mess things up with free movement of people and stuff). It did not fail hopefully, but the infrastructure gains are small compared to even ex-USSR countries. I fear the same is happening in slow motion in India (we'll see in 15 years i guess).
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by WJW on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:54PM (#39634474)
In 1951, when Turkey joined NATO, the country was not actually all that dictator-like.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by 4h53n on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:20AM (#39640025)
Turkey brings more value to NATO then Sweden and Finland combined. It has a standing army (2nd biggest after US in NATO) with combat experience, defense sector with proven capabilities. Not to mention 11th economy in the world by GDP PPP and growing.

It's better for Turkey and NATO, that Turkey is in NATO. I would say it's far more important than Sweden or Finland being in NATO.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by RajT88 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:00PM (#39632290)
> This comment really illustrates the hollowness of the "NATO expanded too aggressively" claim.

In the US, only wingnuts and "useful idiots" (really the same group) are repeating this talking point.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tim333 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:58PM (#39633892)
Mearshiemer got quite a favourable hearing on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30559136
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by RajT88 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @05:51PM (#39635610)
Good lord. I was not aware of this guy before, but his position seems to be akin to suggesting a woman deserved to be raped because of how she was dressed.

Even people pretty forgiving of his essays acknowledge he's habitually at odds with basic facts and history.

Not a wingnut, per se, but on the same spectrum of people divorced from reality. It's too bad as well, because US foreign policy is deserving of more scrutiny than it gets, and it gets a fair amount.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tim333 on Friday March 08, 2024 @08:59AM (#39641099)
I have mixed feelings on him. On the one hand it is a bit - woman should expect to be raped because of how she was dressed. On the other hand he's predicted Putin/Russia's action quite accurately.

I think he errs a bit in suggesting such behaviour is normal for all great powers. The Americans and Chinese while imperfect aren't that bad. And the EU if you can call it a great power does nothing like that - the rape pillage invade stuff. Though of course a couple of centuries ago Europe was invading all over the place. It goes to show these things can change. Probably with Russia we need to make things enough of a pain the the neck for them that they'll see the wisdom of changing eventually also.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by RajT88 on Friday March 08, 2024 @11:14AM (#39642481)
He's said in a few different pieces that Putin 100% does not want to ingest Ukraine into Russia, that he's only interested in "lopping off its limbs" and keeping it out of NATO.

Which is at odds with what Putin has said many times, that Ukraine is not a real nation, but a part of Russia, and Kyiv historically was central to the Russian empire. It's really clear that Putin wants all of Ukraine, not just bits of it. Putin has almost (but not quite) come out and said it. It's an open question on whether Putin would stop with Ukraine (we'll find out only if he takes Ukraine), but there's things he's said which hint that he won't.

> On the other hand he's predicted Putin/Russia's action quite accurately.

So far. At some point, he's going to have to reckon with all the stuff Putin has said about his ambitions that he ignored.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by whatshisface on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:40PM (#39632906)
I really never understood how this statement and "NATO expanded to aggressively" were seen as contradictory. Putin's government wants to put the boot on Russia's neighbors, and NATO was in the process of taking that option away from them, and that's why they committed to war. They're not lying about their motivations, they are phrasing them in head-of-state speak. The same goes for denazification, which is thinly veiled code for intervening in who's allowed to govern Ukraine.
[dead]
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by libertine on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:20PM (#39632596)
Let me do something similar to you what you did with this comment: allowing Russia to develop nukes shouldn't have been tolerated, the morally correct course of action was to prevent it.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by dkjaudyeqooe on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:37PM (#39632852)
This a standard Russian talking point. It's a red herring and a fairly weak justification for Russian aggression in Ukraine.

The US can make demands and so can anyone. In the case of Cuba they were met by the Soviets willingly who withdrew their missiles and made a deal with the US.

Russia objects to NATO membership because it makes bullying and invasion of those with NATO membership impractical. It doesn't threaten Russia but rather it weakens Russia's hand and that is its main complaint. It didn't have a basis for a deal with NATO or the US. Russia has had nukes adjacent to NATO countries for a long time.

There is no moral justification for invasion unless you've already been invaded by that party.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by wnoise on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:31PM (#39632751)
You're assuming a symmetry that doesn't exist.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by ProjectArcturis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:09PM (#39632396)
I think you skipped several steps in this argument. Can you explain more please?
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tcmart14 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:39PM (#39632890)
I think the argument is, if its okay for eastern European nations to run to NATO (and we defend it as self determination), it should be fine when countries decided to run the opposite way (toward the USSR in this case). I will be honest, I agree.I believe Ukraine has the right to self determine their own relationships on the international stage, and I also believe Cuba does too. Although to me, the biggest fuck is, we didn't have like Cuba, we just needed a relationship sufficient enough for Cuba to side with us instead of the USSR. And I think that was a mistake. We do this Saudi Arabia, we should not be on as good of terms with Saudi Arabia as we are. But the reality is, if we are not, some other heavily influential country on the international stage will.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by vajdagabor on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:59PM (#39633173)
Orban and his team don't work for Hungary. They work for themselves (for a small group around Orban's family), trying to take out as much money and power from every opportunity as they can. This might explain purchasing the gas on higher price (and a huge amount of other controversial deals) and preferring partnerships with corrupt governments and politicians. It's all about business and power.

There are good meticulously researched articles about their businesses here (one of the few remaining independent, reliable sources in Hungary): https://www.direkt36.hu/en/

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by hermitcrab on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:53PM (#39633832)
The 'Empire' podcast ran a series about Russia: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/empire/id1639561921

It is clear from listening to the podcast that Russia has always been nightmare to live in (unless you perhaps belonged to a tiny elite) or have as a neighbour. Serfdom wasn't abolished until 1861.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by usrusr on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:38PM (#39632878)
Putin's war isn't a useful term though, because there are so many of them.

Regarding change from "that Russia" to the modern one, I'm afraid there has been change, to the worse. The Soviet incarnation of the empire was at least nominally bound to the progressive ideas of socialism (which is completely orthogonal to wether those ideas are workable or not), whereas the current incarnation is openly worshipping the fascist ideas of strength and domination, and the struggle to get there.

When Russians claim that they don't understand why someone would willingly ally with others who don't prove worthy by actively coercing them, chances are it's genuine, they really don't understand. Sometimes I wonder if their language even has a word for friendship based on equality that is separate from an asymmetric allegiance based on status gradient. Perhaps all the non-gradient terminology was gobbled up by socialist ideology and now the very idea of peers is out, except where seeing it through the socialist lense still fits?

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by reducesuffering on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:53PM (#39634461)
For more understanding of this difference in Russian mindset, see this thread from Kamil Galeev, a Russian independent researcher: https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1761855753290191129