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Re:The largest climatized reading space by lisper on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:23AM (#39600342)
How ironic that this is in China where what you are and are not allowed to read is strictly controlled by the government. Indeed, if I posted this comment while in that library, I would very likely be arrested.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by nicolas_t on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:00AM (#39600550)
It’s been illuminating seeing the hong kong public library « harmonized » after the national security law. No books criticizing the cpp are allowed nowadays.

You won’t find cartoons by Zunzi anymore nor will you find back issues of Apple Daily. The entire political history of hong kong as recorded by published media has been sanitized to ensure that the overly sensitive overlords find nothing that might prick their ego.

So it doesn’t matter if the public library is a nice space with good architecture and a comfortable reading space. If only the official sanctioned viewpoints are available then it fails at the real objective of libraries: To allow people to enrich their mind by giving them multiple viewpoints so that they may forge their own opinions.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by dudisubekti on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:18AM (#39600657)
You could just bring your own book you downloaded with VPN and read it there.

Having a public reading space is always nice

Re:The largest climatized reading space by sandspar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @06:08AM (#39601898)
Only the official sanctioned viewpoints are available on all of our current LLM chatbots, and yet we still enjoy them and find use in them.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by paganel on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:19AM (#39601097)
There are lots of books that don't get published in ideologically-controlled Western countries anymore.

For example trying to write a balanced biography of the military leader that got us (Romania) into WW2 [1] alongside the Germans has become next to impossible, you'd risk breaking several anti-genocide laws. That was not the case before our accession into the NATO and EU ideological structures (the mid-2000s).

What's funny is that the one biography of Antonescu [2] that is not entirely about how "he was a very bad genocidaire" has been written by a person of Jewish ethnicity at a very small printing house (almost self-published), I guess the powers that be thought that it would have looked bad were they to go after a Jewish person who had tried to be impartial to Antonescu.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu

[2] https://www.libris.ro/maresalul-ion-antonescu-o-biografie-te...

Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @06:53AM (#39602202)
That's a little vague. Do you have examples of banned biographies, and the reasons given for the bannings?
Re:The largest climatized reading space by paganel on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:12AM (#39602338)
The banning happens before anyone gets to publish anything, so, no, I cannot tell you exactly what samizdat copies of Ion Antonescu biographies there are in the wild. What I can link to is stuff like this [1], meaning the US Embassy here in Romania openly and actively calling out several City Halls for still having streets named after Ion Antonescu.

> Several cities and towns still named streets after Ion Antonescu, the Romanian dictator from the Second World War, and some local authorities refused to change the name despite requests from the Wiesel Institute. After the Wiesel Institute repeatedly requested, in February, Constanța City Hall to change the name of Ion Antonescu Street, Constanța Mayor Vergil Chițac stated in the press that the evaluations of Antonescu's activity are controversial and contradictory and the City Hall will consider renaming the street after members of academia review the topic

(via google translate)

Hope that that clears up the "vague" thing.

[1] https://ro.usembassy.gov/ro/romania-raportul-international-p...

Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:24AM (#39602437)
That is a little clearer, thanks. What I'm still unsure about is why those places would want to keep their streets named after him. Are the populace proud of him, and why?
Re:The largest climatized reading space by DiggyJohnson on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @12:01PM (#39606222)
I would be resistant to change if a Native American group wanted my home city of Jacksonville to change it's name, because it's named after the perpetrator of atrocities against Native Americans (and also because he apparently never visited the city named after him).

Because there's more to a name than it's namesake. People attach memories and stories and feeling to names. And being told that this all needs to be updated because of bad things in the past by people that don't even live near you will always seem obnoxious.

This makes it sound like I'm against renaming anything, and I'm not. But I don't find it at all surprising when people push back against renaming things or removing monuments due to a reassessment of the past via a modern critical view.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @05:45AM (#39627419)
Thanks for chiming in. I do see your point - names have personal meanings that go beyond what they superficially refer to, and having that stripped away feels like an invalidation or a threat to one's identity and experience.

One the other hand I feel like there are some important differences. The Holocaust is still a recent and deep wound in the European psyche, and Antonescu was an enthusiastic and vicious perpetrator of it in Romania. Romania was the only Nazi ally that independently instigated the Holocaust within its borders. Hitler even praised Antonescu for putting in place much more radical policies for eliminating Jews. Anti-semitic policies continued well beyond the end of WW2 - while Germany invested in reparations and remembrance and rebuilding itself as a safe place for Jews to live, Romania was still outlawing Jewish organisations and bargaining with Israel to allow Jewish emigration for cash. There is still a small Jewish community in Romania, but from what I've read they have good reason to feel uncomfortable about expressing their beliefs openly.

The link that paganel provided is a report from the US embassy, advising US government and citizens on the status of religious freedom in Romania. Whilst it does reference specific city halls, it only does so via references to statements from the Wiesel Institute, a public institude established by the Romanian government to study the Holocaust in Romania. As far as I can tell, it's saying "the country's own national institutes having pointed out transgressions of its own constitution regarding religious freedom". This is presumably of interest for people considering tourism, business or diplomatic work in the country.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by emsixteen on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:38AM (#39600803)
This is ironic in the same way that Alanis Morissette's song is.

Beautiful space. I'm sure it's a great place to spend some time.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:49AM (#39600899)
It definitely looks better than the Xinjiang internment camps. Hopefully once the Uyghurs are released they will enjoy spending time in this illustrious library.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by Aunche on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:38AM (#39600801)
Contrary to popular belief, China does not give a damn about what any random particular individual reads or even writes. It's not exactly an efficient use of resources to jail everyone who says something they find objectionable on the Internet. China's censorship and punishment mostly aims at maintaining the legitimacy of the Communist Party.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by lisper on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:17AM (#39601079)
> Contrary to popular belief, China does not give a damn about what any random particular individual reads or even writes.

Try to get through Chinese immigration wearing a T-shirt that says "Tienanmen Square 1989" or "Free Tibet" and I'll bet you will find that they care quite a lot.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by sandspar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @06:09AM (#39601903)
Try wearing a shirt with the N-word on it and getting through TSA. Each country has its triggers.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @06:43AM (#39602134)
Whilst true, there is a stark difference between stating a fact and using hatespeech.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @08:17AM (#39602939)
Who gets to decide the difference between facts and hatespeech? A famous meme is citing FBI crime statistics by demographics, which are considered factual information but using them in any argument will have you branded a racist.

If after November, the powers that be decide that "Donald Trump lost the 2020 election" is no longer allowed speech, you're screwed. Especially if you wear it on a T-shirt.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @10:20AM (#39630156)
> FBI crime statistics ... are considered factual information but using them in any argument will have you branded a racist

Are you talking about this kind of thing? https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

Depends how you "use" it, surely. Using it to claim that black people are inherently more violent, or to justify police crackdowns on black neighbourhoods is still racist and is not supported by the fact in itself.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by sandspar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:23AM (#39602422)
There are many facts that you aren't allowed to state in the west, including ones which would likely cause you trouble at TSA.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:31AM (#39602479)
Could you give examples? I can think of some cases where a controversial interpretation of the evidence will get you in trouble, but not well-established facts in the realm of "this historical event did in fact occur".
Re:The largest climatized reading space by sandspar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @08:14AM (#39602901)
If you go back to before Jeffrey Epstein was exposed, you would likely face high level suppression if you made a public accusation of Prince Andrew. Many accusations of sexual assault were suppressed before they became believed during #MeToo. Courtney Love publicly warned about Harvey Weinstein in 2005, implying that his behavior was widely known for decades before he was finally arrested. We can talk about it now, but if a young actress had accused him in 2010, for example, she would have been suppressed.

It's almost certain that there are other things like this going on right now. We just haven't heard about them yet. In other words, within our lifetimes we will almost certainly learn, "In 2024, they did..." and we're not aware of it now.

You could also point to news organizations publishing the photos of white mass shooters but not black mass shooters. Try to find a photo of the Kansas City Superbowl parade shooters in mainstream media. Or try searching "Kansas City Superbowl shooting shooters" vs "Las Vegas mass shooting shooter" in Google images. In the former, there are one or two images in the New York Post of one of the shooters. In the latter, almost every image is of the shooter.

Another example is deleting useful data when it contradicts the official narratives. For example, https://www.neilobrien.co.uk/p/the-great-immigration-data-di...

Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:14AM (#39604413)
Well sure, but Prince Andrew conducting sexual abuse isn't currently in the realm of established fact. You and I have our strong suspicions, but he hasn't been convicted of anything and as far as I'm aware the evidence boils down to a few witness statements. The Tiananmen Square massacre is supported by photos, multiple eyewitness accounts from protestors and soldiers, foreign media reports, and even remorseful statements from government officials.

> if a young actress had accused him in 2010, for example, she would have been suppressed

She probably would have worsened her career prospects, which I agree is horrific. It's a testament of how the entertainment industry reinforces patriarchal norms. But it is a far cry from actual suppression. Personalities like David Icke have been lobbing accusations around about the Royal Family for years, publishing books and giving talks. As far as I'm aware he hasn't been imprisioned or censored in the UK for any of that. He's been banned from countries for denying the Holocaust and spreading COVID misinformation, but neither of these are cases of stating well-established facts.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by hoseja on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:45AM (#39602598)
Definition of "hatespeech" is arbitrary. How are yall not getting this. "1989 Tiananmen Square" is hatespeech too. It's disrupting harmonious society, harming hardworking people etc..
Re:The largest climatized reading space by n4r9 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @10:16AM (#39630107)
It's ambiguous. Vague, even. But not arbitrary. For example, it pretty much universally relates to speech that discriminates on the basis of identity factors such as race, religion or sexual orientation. A country cannot categorise "1989 Tiananmen Square" as hatespeech and expect to be taken seriously. What identity group is being hated?
Re:The largest climatized reading space by Tabular-Iceberg on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @01:11PM (#39607129)
It’s easy enough to make the case for "Tienanmen Square 1989" and "Free Tibet" to be hate speech as well. The people who go around saying that don’t tend to think very highly of the CCP.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by exitheone on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:01AM (#39601386)
The CCP control is strictly about blast radius. Individual citizen in their homes are rarely subject to any enforcement action. Even talking critically on social media in small circles is mostly fine (apart from simple "bad-word" filters that just remove whole messages). The moment you reach a wider audience or "disrupt public harmony", they come down on you.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by hnbad on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:14AM (#39601484)
Yeah but ultimately that is far more dangerous, no? The law enables severe punishments that are applied arbitrarily by those tasked with enforcing it. Knowing there is a clear and reliable line you can't cross allows for opposition movements to take advantage of that line and build within the narrow demarcations. Arbitrary enforcement means you can never know if someone in charge has it out for you that day because you probably already broke laws that could be used against you before coming anywhere near actively participating in political dissent.

As the common wisdom goes: Al Capone was not arrested for being a crime boss but for tax evasion. Why bother setting clear boundaries on what behavior is or isn't anti-revolutionary if you can just make sure everyone already violates the law based on technicalities and then just decide who you want to arrest for it as necessary?

Re:The largest climatized reading space by op00to on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:46AM (#39601730)
No, the DDR “spy on your neighbor” situation is much more dangerous.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by hnbad on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @08:06AM (#39615524)
I'm not sure what the surveillance has to do. I was responding to a comment saying that while the CCP cracks down on dissidents it does so mostly based on perceived "blast radius" (i.e. reach). I'm saying this selective enforcement is actually worse than if they just blindly enforced a specific ban.

If anything "spy on your neighbor" plays into what I said: you not only need to worry about getting on the bad side of the authority (i.e. those able to enforce the law against you) but of literally anyone else who might have it out for you. The legal basis for arresting people is just legalistic window dressing to create a pretense of law and justice.

This is, by the way, the biggest practical distinction between the authoritarianism of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany: in peak Nazi Germany the police would just drag you off the street and throw you in a hole or shoot you for treason, in the Soviet Union the police would disappear you into a gulag but only after giving you an unwinnable mock trial where you would be put on record to confess (after torture if necessary or desired) to your treasonous counter-revolutionary beliefs. Because one followed purely from "might makes right" and the other tried to maintain a pretense of ideological principles and justice. Not that this mattered much to those on the receiving end - you'd still end up dead or imprisoned.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by sandspar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @06:07AM (#39601883)
You can't read whatever you want in America either, yet we still have bookstores. The Chinese government controls a handful of things very tightly and is laissez-faire about many other things. Also you wouldn't be arrested. Chinese people aren't automatons. They know how to get around silly rules, just like we do.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by hereme888 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @08:45AM (#39603324)
What? I've never read a law passed by Congress that makes any reading material illegal.

Are you referring to the inappropriate sexual books pandered to little children in schools?

Re:The largest climatized reading space by angiosperm on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @12:57PM (#39606940)
> I've never read a law...

Funny that.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by sandspar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @09:34AM (#39603958)
Examples of publication bans might include the government level publication ban on mass shooter manifestos. And the quasi-government Amazon bans of books. America also sees activist-led retractions of scientific studies. More prosaically, non-legitimate possession of classified material is illegal.
Re:The largest climatized reading space by philipkglass on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:17PM (#39609862)
More prosaically, non-legitimate possession of classified material is illegal.

People who leak classified material can be prosecuted, if discovered, but the press is not bound by classification directives in the United States. It was established in this 1971 court case around the classified Pentagon Papers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._United_S...

Re:The largest climatized reading space by cratermoon on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @12:04PM (#39606263)
> What? I've never read a law passed by Congress that makes any reading material illegal.

That's correct. In the US, we have the First Amendment to prevent government interference, and the genesis of that law goes back to John Milton's Areopagitica.

On the flip side, that same document gives private business broad economic freedom, and businesses are not afraid to use their economic power to suppress or bury ideas that threaten their profits.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by autoexec on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:03PM (#39611816)
The recent increase in book bans and burnings are terrible, but there are many more examples much older. See for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_books_banned_by_govern...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_...

Re:The largest climatized reading space by hereme888 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @12:10AM (#39612544)
So some books were banned from being sent by mail for excess obscenity. I find it correct that material that is immoral and lewd for its own sake be restricted in some way.

Another was banned 100 years before the US was founded.

More recently: one book was banned for containing classified information, another for seducing people to commit tax fraud (the author's followers having already committed $56MM in tax fraud. I agree with both of these restrictions.

A more interesting one was Nixon trying to suspend the publishing of the Pentagon Papers, but a court opposed it.

I don't see any actual book banning or burning.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by autoexec on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @12:07PM (#39618094)
> I find it correct that material that is immoral and lewd for its own sake be restricted in some way.

I think freedom means that we get to decide for ourselves what is "immoral" or "lewd" and can choose to read or not read those books accordingly. I'm guessing you've never read "Forever Amber" or "Naked Lunch" or even "Howl", but you might just be surprised at what your would-be masters decided was too explicit for you to be allowed to read.

> I don't see any actual book banning or burning.

You must have missed the part where all those books were banned by states and even where in the 60s the federal government forced a publisher to pull all copies of a book from the shelves of bookstores and to stop publication of it entirely all to appease a foreign country who was embarrassed by the truths the book told about them.

Re:The largest climatized reading space by l3mure on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @01:14PM (#39607165)
> Some of the tentacles of Total Literary Awareness have been unraveled by literary historian Claire Culleton. Delving into the Bureau’s 234-page file on commercial publisher Henry Holt, she uncovers evidence of Hoover’s “custodial relationship” with the pillars of the Cold War book market.

> Holt employees sent the Bureau all manner of literary foreknowledge, from book proposals to page proofs to advance copies—so much material that an editorial staffer wrote Hoover with the news that “I am beginning to feel like a member of the FBI myself.”

> Predictably, Hoover and his ghostwriters were asked to provide blurbs for The Hidden Russia and other anticommunist titles. Just as often, however, the Bureau was granted uncommon rights of pre-refusal. Holt editor Milt Hill, for example, asked FBI contacts for “advice as to whether we should do or not” a McCarthy autobiography, receiving a green light since it “would be a friendly book from a Bureau standpoint.”

> Books less kind to the Bureau were rejected with its help at Holt and other firms. The manuscript of Fred Cook’s muckraking The FBI Nobody Knows, eventually published in 1964, was refused at Random House (home of The FBI Story) after publisher Bennett Cerf shredded professional ethics by forwarding a copy to Hoover.

> Editorial informants such as Cerf, recruited in the wake of the Lowenthal embarrassment, made it practically impossible to criticize the FBI through a major New York publisher without costly delay. With the FBI fed the minutes of editorial board meetings at Time and Life, Fortune and Look, the Reader’s Digest and the Daily Worker, points along the full spectrum of U.S. print culture were opened to Bureau pre-awareness. To adapt Louis Nichols, there was now most always a body poised to throw itself between the presses.

https://theamericanreader.com/total-literary-awareness-how-t...

Of course that all stopped after the 70s/80s, right?