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Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by radarsat1 on Monday March 04, 2024 @03:35PM (#39595694)
This is an important question. However, I'd like to point out that similar biases can easily exist for non-ML, hand-tuned algorithms. Even in the latter case test sets and often even "training" and "validation" sets are used for finding good parameters. Any of these can be a source of bias, as can the ears of evaluators making these decisions.

It's true that bias questions often come up in ML context because fundamentally these algorithms do not work without data, but _all_ algorithms are designed by people, and _many_ can involve data in setting their parameters. Both of which can be sources of bias. ML is more known for it, I believe, because the _inductive_ biases are less than in traditional algorithms, and therefore are more keen to adopt biases present in the dataset.

Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by thomastjeffery on Monday March 04, 2024 @04:28PM (#39596378)
Usually regular algorithms aren't generating data that pretends to be raw data. That's the significant difference here.
Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by shwaj on Monday March 04, 2024 @09:35PM (#39598814)
Can you precisely define what you mean by "generating" and "pretends", in such a way that this neural network does both these things, but a conventional modern audio codec doesn't?

"Pretends" is a problematic choice of words, because it anthropomorphizes the algorithm. It would be more accurate and less misleading to replace "pretends to be" with "approximates". But then it wouldn't serve your goal of (seeming to) establish a categorical difference between this approach and "regular algorithms", because that's what a regular algorithm does too.

I apologize, because the above might sound rude. It's not intended to be.

Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by thomastjeffery on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:19AM (#39604475)
I was avoiding the word "approximate", because that implies a connection to the original raw data.

A generative model guesses what data should be filled in, based on what is present in its own model. This process is totally ignorant of the original (missing) data.

To contrast, a lossy codec works directly with the original data. It chooses what to throw out based on what the algorithm itself can best reproduce during playback. This is why you should never transcode from one lossy codec to another: the holes will no longer line up with the algorithm's hole-filling expectations.

Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by samus on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:32AM (#39600389)
Not really. Any lossy codec is generating data that pretends to be close to the raw data.
Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by thomastjeffery on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:12AM (#39604393)
Yes, but the holes were intentionally constructed such that the end result is predictable.

There is a difference between pretending to be the original raw data, and pretending to be whatever data will most likely fit.

Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by samus on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:59PM (#39608464)
And that's why Packet Loss Concealment is only used to fill in the occasional lost packet. That way, the occasional vowel or the end of a syllable could be bridged over. Other improvements exist to prevent packet loss in the first place that are much less in make-samples-up territory.
Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by thomastjeffery on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:14PM (#39608647)
Yes, I agree that this use case is entirely reasonable. I also agree that it's reasonable to be concerned in the first place.
Re:Opus 1.5 released: Opus gets a machine learning upgrade by MauranKilom on Monday March 04, 2024 @06:34PM (#39597574)
As a notable example, the MP3 format was hand-tuned to vocals based on "Tom's Diner" (i.e. a female voice). It has been accused of being biased towards female vocals as a result.