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Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by thsksbd on Friday March 01, 2024 @07:36AM (#39561184)
"However, I also hope that we ask the question, how can we make our society better such that we have to drive less and use less energy?"

By radically lowering speed limits [1] and slowly rebuilding our infrastructure to reflect that. It will take a long time, it took 100 years to build infrastructure that assumed a person could cross 15 miles of suburbia in as many minutes.

[1] I do mean radical; cars shouldnt be able to go faster than 30 mph. For folks with a need for speed (myself incld.), perhaps will exempt motorbikes

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by vouaobrasil on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:02AM (#39561357)
I absolutely agree! I think we should lower speed limits not just for cars, but for life in general: economic systems and the internet should have speed limits. And I'm being serious. Ivan Illich talks about this in his book [1] and I tend to agree with most of it after a lot of thought.

[1] Illich, Ivan. "Energy and equity." (1974).

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by thsksbd on Saturday March 02, 2024 @04:44PM (#39576034)
The guy who agrees with me reads Ivan Illich!!!

I've never read too much of him (no time, I have many of his books), but his argument that cars, on average, have an effective speed of 5 kph blew my mind.

That flipped my understanding of cars.

The irony is that he was a far left hippie who flirted with getting defrocked and I am supposed to be a "far right" conservative (whatever that means).

Have you read E.F. Schumacher? "Small is beautiful" is right your alley.

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by illusive4080 on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:10AM (#39561419)
You’ve got to be living in a city and unaware of the vast swaths of space between rural places in the US. I have to make 12 hour drives on occasion with my family in tow and you’d make my trip 30 hours.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by thsksbd on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:53PM (#39567240)
I live in suburban USA, and I don't appreciate those who would flash impose transportations "solutions" solutions on us. City folk love to impose costs on others.

Thats why I insist that this is a 100+ year project. Our current infrastructure is built around 80mph cars (I drive 90!) and it will take forever to build sustainable infrastructure.

I drive far; my folks and I get together once a month and they live 300 miles away. My in laws live 600 miles away and we see them relatively often, again by car.

I hate flying (Im tall and ppl smell), so I drive a lot. In fact I love driving, and I will never not own at least one car.

But lets be frank. I live 300 miles from my parents because cars enabled me to do so. Fast transportation has radically lowered the cost of living away from family, lowered the cost of not investing in our communal areas.

Besides, I make exceptions for motorcycles: no speed limit for them :)

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by chihuahua on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:56PM (#39593591)
Around the time when self-driving carriages were first introduced, some states had laws requiring that a person with a red flag must walk in front of any motorized vehicle. But only in cities, a reasonable compromise.

/s

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by yetihehe on Friday March 01, 2024 @07:41AM (#39561204)
> I do mean radical; cars shouldnt be able to go faster than 30 mph

You might just ban them at that point. Why waste ANY resources on a car? We could return to horse drawn carriages, they are biological and therefore more environmentally friendly [1]

[1] https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great...

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by krallja on Friday March 01, 2024 @07:50AM (#39561263)
Horse poo covering streets is not particularly friendly to the environment.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by throw0101b on Friday March 01, 2024 @07:59AM (#39561341)
> Horse poo covering streets is not particularly friendly to the environment.

Most people did not own horses, especially not in cities.

They were generally limited to farmers, businesses (to draw carts/carriages), and the rich (Gilded Age).

For most of history most humans walked to their destination on a day-to-day basis. This changed slightly with the invention of rail roads and later bicycles. The automobile didn't go mainstream until roughly the 1920s:

* https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262516129/fighting-traffic/

Look at any pre-WW2 development and you'll see neighbourhoods built for human scale:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb

Design things 'properly' and neither cars, nor horse-drawn carriages, are needed by people for most of their daily tasks. This is evidence by the fact that humans lived like that for centuries just fine.

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by geodel on Friday March 01, 2024 @03:17PM (#39566295)
Huh, humans live for centuries in caves also just fine. I don't know why cities, streets and bicycles are needed.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by throw0101b on Friday March 01, 2024 @07:44PM (#39568703)
> Huh, humans live for centuries in caves also just fine.

Less draft-y, better control temperature, and indoor plumbing with modern building science.

> I don't know why cities, streets and bicycles are needed.

Cities have less environmental impact, streets offer easier movement, and bicycles are probably the most efficient way of a human being moving.

I'm not sure how designing communities where private automobiles are a necessity improved upon communities where they are optional nice-to-haves.

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by tnel77 on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:16AM (#39561462)
Not that I want to ban cars, but I’d have to imagine that horse feces is better for the environment than motor oil and other fluids that leak from a car.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by tamaharbor on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:22AM (#39561501)
Do horses fart as much as cows?
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by yetihehe on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:58AM (#39561804)
Depends on the amount of each. One liter of oil is less friendly than one dung, but average car leaks much less oil than a horse produces dung. Several tons of dung in one place is not that good, look at big animal farm runoff. Cars were hailed as solution for horse dung problem.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by bluGill on Friday March 01, 2024 @09:10AM (#39561911)
That is far to complex to make any statement on.

Feces (including horse) spread disease. Motor oil leaking is mostly leaking on places where nothing grows anyway because all the traffic compacts the earth and so plants cannot grow (Deer in woods make trails where plants cannot grow, this isn't about cars at all) . As such I give the win to the leaking fluids for the local environment.

Cars generally are burning fossil fuels and putting more CO2 into the air. A horse is burning plants and so are net zero CO2 (assuming you don't use fuels to make the hay!) So for the earth horses are better.

Both cars and horses can kill people if they hit them. Car drives generally pay some attention, and horses generally will not run over people. However there are failures where both can kill. I don't know how to find statistic to tell which is worse in practice though.

A horse is a rich man's toy. Generally in the horse days humans walked, even the rich would walk most of the time - you can walk just as far and fast as a horse in a day. The horse was used to pull carts or carry heavy loads (though most people fail to realize just how much a human can carry and give the horse too much credit here). While a car is the common person's way to get around even when they could walk. Thus for human's the horse is a win because you exercise (though I'd really want to add a bicycle to this analysis)

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by tnel77 on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:29PM (#39565007)
I generally agree with your reply, minus the first part. Yes, oil drops on the road where aren’t growing food, but we cannot ignore the fact that rain sweeps oil away into waterways which is awful for local wildlife. Feces washing into the waterways isn’t ideal, but I’d wager it’s better for the fish than oil.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by claytongulick on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:25PM (#39566969)
> A horse is a rich man's toy.

To be a tad pedantic, it's more accurate to say a "rich woman's toy".

The vast majority of horse owners/managers are women [1].

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/388979/gender-distributi...

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by bluGill on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:42PM (#39569030)
That is correct in these days. 100 years ago things were different.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by yetihehe on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:08AM (#39561402)
But they are slow and don't use petroleum products. Fast and petroleum based is used as an argument against car ownership.
Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by thsksbd on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:55PM (#39567248)
- the Model T had a too speed of 40 mph. Hardly a speed deamon

- Horses dont do 30 mph sustained

- Horses eat. A lot

- Horses need care

- More horse riding would be a good thing

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by JKCalhoun on Friday March 01, 2024 @08:46AM (#39561690)
In the midwest there is so much space/land in the suburbs you could run parallel bike/golf-cart lanes - probably speed limit them to 25 MPH. If you had protected pathways for small electric transport I would imagine people would get on board.

Oddly many of the neighbors seem to already have golf carts in their garages ... I guess to tool around the neighborhood? (Christ, can't you even walk to the pickleball court, ha ha?)

Re:The Lithium-Ion Battery May Not Be the Best Bet for EVs by DinaCoder99 on Friday March 01, 2024 @03:21PM (#39566349)
That still binds individuals to cars, though. I imagine the actual solution will involve removing the need for cars or enabling bulk transportation.