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Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by roody15 on Thursday February 29, 2024 @12:31PM (#39552383)
More of a dystopian nightmare. Rather than seeing an individual having agency to make decisions and face consequences … we may be moving to a model of a human as nothing more than a fancy automaton. Ohh so Mr Jim is showing addictive traits and not performing task X well. No problem let’s sap his brain and get him fixed up.

Super excited for any breakthroughs with Dementia … but fixing addiction, obesity… or even paranoid wrong think with ultrasounds is scary and perhaps harks back to the era of lobotomies.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by numinoid on Thursday February 29, 2024 @12:45PM (#39552543)
It seems you could do this with any technological/medical advancement - how is this any different from semaglutide for obesity or wellbutrin for addiction? It's just a different lever to pull.

Harkening back to lobotomies is a false dichotomy, the environment in which research is done today wouldn't even allow for an outcome like that.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by BizarroLand on Thursday February 29, 2024 @12:57PM (#39552677)
I disagree. It's a fair concern.

They are literally shaking small parts of the brain until they act differently. It's not as extreme as a lobotomy but its lobotomy adjacent and a little scary.

Sure, unlike a lobotomy it probably just jostling areas of the brain and not damaging entire sections with an icepick, but it's still fair to accept that some people (like myself) feel automatic body horror and fear at the idea of parts of my brain being damaged.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by basisword on Thursday February 29, 2024 @01:11PM (#39552879)
If my life were ruined and I was dying from alcoholism or drug addiction I get the feeling I probably wouldn't be thinking about this in a philosophical way. Societal impacts or potential abuses would be the least of my concerns.
Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by touisteur on Thursday February 29, 2024 @01:52PM (#39553395)
Especially if the alternative is cold turkey, or a good old DT... All my heartfelt deep thanks to everyone who keeps digging for solutions, workarounds... anything that might help there.
Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by BizarroLand on Thursday February 29, 2024 @01:18PM (#39552956)
No, that's fair, my stance very much was from the viewpoint of a generically healthy mind and not from the viewpoint of a damaged mind.

If I were in that position I might seriously consider the value of having 99% of me make it to the other side of this misery in exchange for the 1% of my brain that is ruining my life.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by mateo1 on Thursday February 29, 2024 @06:18PM (#39556497)
How about this scenario: In 20 years, this treatment is standard, but there's a catch: it's bundled with a wider behavioral modification treatment protocol, whereby they first reduce the cravings for drugs and alcohol, then they start showing you anti-establishment imagery, and zap the parts of your brain that respond to it.

In fact the second treatment is also standard issue for all those who are diagnosed with oppositionism, a growing mental health disorder characterized by symptoms such as distrusting government authorities and forbes 500 companies. Treatments show a 90% reduction of symptoms and improving quality of life, for example they no longer clash with authorities or make hate statements as defined by the patriot act II of 2028.

Obviously an exaggeration, but there is a real concern. The line is blurry and will be crossed if we let it happen. Taking intravenous drugs for 20 years does some serious damage. It's nice if we develop a treatment for it, but it also shifts the focus away from prevention. People shouldn't be reaching that point, and wouldn't if we were acting on it.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by stonogo on Thursday February 29, 2024 @07:58PM (#39557257)
It's not really a blurry line. "They" could require you to take antipsychotic pills when you renew your driver license. "They" could chemically castrate you when you register to vote and select the wrong party affiliation. But they can't, because in the US patients can refuse treatment.

Panicking about new treatments because "they" might someday bundle them with other treatments isn't particularly effective, because you can just decline the treatments you don't want. The days of no-oversight asshole doctors drilling holes in people for being weird are conscripted to the past. If patient rights to refuse treatment are destroyed, then sure, freak out all you want.

Meanwhile, research is not a zero-sum game. Treatments and prevention can be, and are, worked on in parallel, often by people with wildly different research backgrounds. Specifically, the resources and personnel involved are not fungible. Discouraging field A because you'd rather have someone work on field B doesn't necessarily mean anyone will work on field B, it just guarantees you don't make progress in field A.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by numinoid on Thursday February 29, 2024 @02:07PM (#39553606)
My issue is more with framing it as a lobotomy analogue when in reality the similarity ends at them both being brain procedures. My read is that this is more akin to something like rehabilitation in that previously damaged tissue is being worked on to improve function.

With regards to the body horror thing, that is legitimate and there is the possibility that we look back on this in 20 years like we do with lobotomy. I personally think it's unlikely considering the differences in how research is regulated compared to the past.

In general I think we need to reframe how we look at medical treatments. Changing the brain is literally the point - it's dysfunctional. Whether that be through physical manipulation like this or via pharmacology, something HAS to change functionally or there will be no difference. Until the point that we have nano robots carrying out bodily processes for us it's on our brain and body to adapt to whatever environmental stress it's exposed to, for better (exercising improving health for example) and for worse(trauma causing increased likelihood of addiction etc). This treatment is no different from anything else, all that matters is the positive or negative reaction.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by tasty_freeze on Thursday February 29, 2024 @04:54PM (#39555695)
> They are literally shaking small parts of the brain until they act differently.

No, from what other comments have said, they are using ultrasound to open the blood/brain barrier so that drugs can enter the affected area. They aren't indiscriminately shaking the patient's brain and hoping for the best.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by MisterBastahrd on Thursday February 29, 2024 @02:04PM (#39553569)
Have you ever considered that nothing is wrong with you because nothing is wrong with you, and not that nothing is wrong with you because you are some stoic or heroic figure who managed to simply resist temptation?

I've been drunk plenty of times. I've also not consumed enough alcohol to be in a drunken state in almost 8 years despite having a collection of bourbon worth thousands. A good friend of mine, who drank no more than I did for a long while, could not stop. He kept going until he wrecked his liver and died from organ failure.

I didn't have the strength to overcome alcoholism. I was simply never an alcoholic. He was.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by ClumsyPilot on Thursday February 29, 2024 @08:44PM (#39557559)
Indeed, I am not better than chain smokers, I just happen to be wired differently that it does not have a grip on me. It’s not like something I deserve.

Chocolate on the other hand…

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by confoundcofound on Thursday February 29, 2024 @01:16PM (#39552923)
Something tells me you are wholly unaware of the damage that addiction and obesity can inflict not just on the person afflicted, but on their family, community, and society as a whole. The benefits/costs equation is so massively lopsided here that you'd be cruel to advocate that people endure years of avoidable torment to satisfy your faulty notion of free will / agency. I can't think of anything more agency-promoting than ridding someone of their addictions.
Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by BizarroLand on Thursday February 29, 2024 @02:43PM (#39554038)
What line would you draw between the technology existing and being useful to society and people's fundamental and inalienable right to refuse ever having it used on them?

Following their original thread, how would you feel if the government decided that this could be used for criminal correction, or if a company made going through a quick brain cleanse a part of the hiring process, or a college part of it's onboarding, or the military a part of boot camp?

Do we clean every spot to flawless similarity or just clean the bad thoughts?

If the latter, who gets to decide what the bad thoughts are?

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by MisterBastahrd on Thursday February 29, 2024 @03:26PM (#39554583)
Your argument is akin to being against needles because the government might use them to perform lethal injections.

I don't know if you've ever known any addicts, but they aren't exactly happy about being addicted. Give them a treatment that works and is affordable and most of them will be just happy to get some targeted head buzzing to treat their symptoms.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by BizarroLand on Thursday February 29, 2024 @07:29PM (#39557071)
There is a similarity but I don't think it's quite 1:1. Both of your reference points are an order of magnitude weaker or stronger than mine.

As I've said in other responses, my viewpoint is coming from the viewpoint of a generally healthy mind and not wanting that to be taken from me.

If I become someone with an unhealthy mind my viewpoint could change.

Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by MisterBastahrd on Thursday February 29, 2024 @07:41PM (#39557152)
Hysterical scaremongering which masquerades as lucid, rational thought doesn't go very far here.
Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by BizarroLand on Thursday February 29, 2024 @07:47PM (#39557185)
Once again, an order of magnitude more than the reality. My response was not by any but the thinnest stretched imagination "hysterical scaremongering"
Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by confoundcofound on Thursday February 29, 2024 @11:49PM (#39558620)
Your real problem is with the state, not with technology.
Re:Neurosurgeon pioneers Alzheimer's, addiction treatments u... by BizarroLand on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @04:33PM (#39621822)
Wrong again. It's trusting my brain to other people.