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Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by scarmig on Sunday May 06, 2012 @08:57PM (#3937053)
This article is tailor made for a lot of Nelson Muntz-ish "HAHA"s.

1) Gloating over your own skills being in demand can be short-sighted. How many of the people here were thinking, "wow, I'm really passionate about medieval history, but I'll go into software development because that's where the big bucks are?" I'd hazard to say none: people choose to do what they enjoy, not what will make them money. Just because your passion happened to line up with today's market discipline doesn't mean that anyone whose passions aren't in that same direction are fools. (And do you really want a bunch of people who have no innate skills in programming flocking to IT and CS in the hopes of cashing out?)

2) That said, I'm not massively sympathetic toward her. Lots of people don't have the ability to easily cease living off food stamps: she could find a job to catapult her into the middle class in a matter of months. It's a choice on her end. Though, it's not even clear that it's a poor choice, since she gets to do what she loves and has enough money plus entitlements for food, shelter, and medical care.

3) But to tease out some points even further... most people are more interested in pissing on her choices than in figuring out how they can use her situation to better the world. Wait, (ostensibly) great teachers in obscure topics are out there in abundance working only a couple hours a week? Shouldn't we be spending more time wondering "Is there an opportunity here?" than wondering if her choices make her education worthless or if she deserves our pity or not?

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by Cadsby on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:28PM (#3937144)
> she could find a job to catapult her into the middle class in a matter of months. It's a choice on her end.

On what basis is this assumption made? I'm genuinely curious because I think it reflects the attitude of many in certain segments in our society. The idea that poverty is a choice, and if they wanted to they could just choose their way out of it just like that.

Keep in mind the context of the present age we're living in - unemployment, across almost all sectors, is still extremely high. Are all these people, especially the educated segments, just choosing to live off public assistance? It's pretty clear, and this was the whole point of the article, that having an education isn't an IWIN button for middle class standard of living anymore, and yet society keeps selling that idea to the younger generation.

> That said, I'm not massively sympathetic toward her.

It's dangerously easy to judge people who aren't doing as well as oneself.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by yummyfajitas on Monday May 07, 2012 @07:55AM (#3938606)
The idea that poverty is a choice, and if they wanted to they could just choose their way out of it just like that.

There is of course no way to prove she has alternatives. But the article does not suggest she looked.

It's quite easy to judge most poor people in America, since most of them do choose to live off public assistance. Most poor people choose not to work, and if they do work, choose not to work full time. Bruninga-Matteau seems to fall into the latter camp.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2009.pdf

(In contrast, Stegall does seem rather more sympathetic, since he did attempt to find non-academic work.)

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by scarmig on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:34PM (#3937161)
That's all true and valid. I do believe there's a distinction between a person from an upper-middle class family, racially and economically privileged, who has the intellectual ability to get a Ph.D. and the typical welfare recipient. And even if a college degree doesn't guarantee anything nowadays, people with college degrees do have many more opportunities than those without. Which is reflected in, e.g., Medicaid and food stamps, which is why we get so surprised when a person with significant higher education ends up on Medicaid and food stamps.
Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by WalterSear on Monday May 07, 2012 @02:17AM (#3937854)
Different programs need different abilities. I have two family members who are currently completing 'go through the motions' higher degrees.
Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by phamilton on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:11PM (#3937098)
I don't think people only have one passion. I personally have a passion for pure mathematics and number theory. My passion for software and hardware comes in a close enough second that I chose to focus my career on development rather than pure mathematics.

I was all set to double major in mathematic when I got married. When my wife and I had our first kid I decided to finish up a Computer Engineering degree and enter the workforce rather than take an extra year to finish the math major.

Sometimes you have to find something you enjoy enough. I absolutely enjoy programming, but it still doesn't come close to how fascinating I find number theory.

Everyone has options, and they make (or should make) their choices fully aware of the likely outcomes.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by scarmig on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:26PM (#3937136)
I don't think we disagree. But it's likely that most people who end up in a Ph.D. program in Medieval Studies don't have many passions that are marketable: there's a lot of self-selection involved, and if the main subject of the article was also passionate in, say, EECS, I think it's a fairly good bet she would have chosen it. And passions in Medieval Studies are likely correlated with similarly un-marketable passions.

Though, maybe not. I could totally see someone being really interested in the structures of everyday life of medieval peasantry. Seems worthless, but you could totally parlay that into a profitable business doing furniture making or even green/natural/traditional housing.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by YuriNiyazov on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:21PM (#3937123)
I happen to share your passion for mathematics, but IMO, mathematics is actually a really poor example of "see, I have this passion that I can't make money out of, so I decided to become a developer".

The kind of money that is available in finance to someone with an advanced degree in math or physics is nothing short of astounding, with CS a distant second. Of course, there are all kinds of ethical compromises one must make for that.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by phamilton on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:31PM (#3937154)
But finance is not pure mathematics. It's more in the realm of applied mathematics. There isn't a whole lot of organic money (ie, not prize money) in pure mathematics.
Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by YuriNiyazov on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:47PM (#3937192)
Vladimir Arnold once said that there is no such thing as applied mathematics, only applications of mathematics. I think he was right.
Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by dxbydt on Sunday May 06, 2012 @10:03PM (#3937229)
i read the article twice. something in it really hit home with me. i have an offer from a prof at the local univ to pursue a math phd, and i might do so in the fall. my employer is ok with it, so i get to keep my job as well. however, its a fairly useless part of math ( useless in the GH Hardy sense ) in commutative algebra, specifically prufer groups ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%BCfer_group ) Now, I could do something "useful" and closer to finance, like stochastic calculus and stats and applied pdes & so forth...but my heart's not in those things. it feels like what i do anyway at work, so why would i do more of the same out of choice ? some of the comments below make me quite queasy. see, supply-demand is not a normative ideal. "One of the things you are are supposed to learn in economics is to avoid extremes. It is never all or nothing. Everything has advantages and disadvantages. And any way you jump has an opportunity cost because there are lots of things you would like to do with your limited means. So life is about trade-offs between rival objectives and you should optimise rather than maximise. " - so said Ross Gittins, and there's much more where that came from.

so this supply-demand thingy - its just something that happens to accurately describe the current state of the world, or more particularly the usa, especially in a bubble where it is infinitely more preferable to drop out of college and pursue ruby on rails than stick it out for a lousy diploma with your name on it. but if an athlete wanting to compete in the olympics mistakenly walked into a circus and started jumping through hoops, the crowd would throw coin at him. he can then collect that coin & settle down, get married, raise a family, get a drivers license, buy an automobile, pay municipal state and federal taxes & so on. but that just means he's become a clown, not an athlete. it is unfortunate that athletics is non sexy and training to be one involves grueling practice for years and years in isolation with no attention, no fame, no coin. but to dodge that work and passion because of what society chooses to value at a particular point in time is quite defeatist. none of what we do in cs today would have been considered useful in the 20s and 30s. church and turing would have clearly been better off working in the railroads or digging an oil well. yet they did what they did, and here we are... so, respect. you never know what the future holds for medieval history or english literature. i spent 3 semesters as a film major before i dropped out, and i must say it was a royal blast. repeatedly watching blondes strip and run towards the beach in their red bikinis while their breasts bobbed up and down, and the professor of film studies pausing the remote at the critical instant when a tad bit of cleavage was visible and saying "hey, this is why baywatch was a hit" and all of us students scribbling down "must place camera on sand level and tile up to show cleavage in beach shots" - i mean, nothing beats that. no amount of fancy research in STEM will match the pure adrenaline that passes for film studies. so there's a reason people in their youth pursue these non-lucrative fields, so lets not rain on their parade.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by phamilton on Sunday May 06, 2012 @10:25PM (#3937289)
Completely true. My argument isn't to avoid the one thing you are truly passionate about. It's to understand the realistic results of that pursuit. If I hadn't gotten married while still in school I probably would have gotten the double major and perhaps gone to graduate school in mathematics. But my priorities shifted. I found choosing a close runner up in order to better my family life to be superior. Just as I would probably pass up on a promotion that would require me to travel 30% of the time. For me my family is a passion. For other people, having a nice house and nice toys is a passion. As you said, it's all about optimizing rival objectives. For me that optimization between my interests and having a family is software development. That is purely from my perspective, but it's a choice I have made and there are consequences of that choice, both seen and unforeseen.

And that's the point. Once we make a choice, we must accept the consequences. The article indicates there was some sort of agreement between life and students that says "If you study hard and get an advanced degree you won't have financial troubles." Since that wasn't the case, the world seems unfair. There is no such agreement. I'm not raining on the parade of students studying things that interest them. I feel strongly that their studies are beneficial and they become better people and better members of society because of them. But they were never promised financial success and not having it is not a breach of contract in any way shape or form. That's why this article rubs this crowd the wrong way.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by YuriNiyazov on Sunday May 06, 2012 @10:27PM (#3937294)
actually, your point about being a film major is right on target. yea, it was awesome for 3 semesters, but if you'd spent 10 years getting a phd in that and then discovered that you aren't going to make coin, then yes, may your parade be rained on.
Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by teyc on Sunday May 06, 2012 @10:53PM (#3937364)
I've lived long enough to see unemployed engineers, ex NASA rocket scientists, programmers after the .com bust,. The more specialised the profession, the harder it is for the person to find work when the economy drastically changes.

The smarter a person is, the more likely they suffer from the myopic perspective that things will be different for themselves.

In particular, young people make all sorts of uninformed choices based on the biases of people around them. For instance, youths are exposed to 8 hours of indoctrination that school and the life of the academic represents the highest ideal. But look who's telling them?

The same goes for startup communities which glorifies sleeping on the couch. Ideals and realities are often two different things.

Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by xaa on Sunday May 06, 2012 @08:59PM (#3937061)
Yep at #1. Perhaps, as an exercise in empathy, people here could imagine how their lives would change if, due to "supply and demand", programmer salaries dropped to $20k/year.
Re:The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps by YuriNiyazov on Sunday May 06, 2012 @09:15PM (#3937107)
Believe it or not, I imagine that all the time, and keep a long list of subjects that I casually read about on the side as a hedge.

The first thing I would do is ditch programming as a means of producing a living, and only do it as a hobby, and immediately reorganize my life to transition to a field that pays what programmer salaries are now.