> PHP let's people do really dumb ORM templating.

PHP has nothing to do with ORM problems. Any language allows dumb stuff related to ORM. Those are the libraries rather than the language.

PHP, like any language, has good and bad libraries.

If a project uses a bad solution for ORM, the language is not to blame.

I can do dumb ORM stuff in C#, Java, Rust, C++ and Python.

If a project picked a bad framework 10 years ago and now complains about the language instead of the framework I don't know what to tell you.

Then it sounds like we disagree on what the thread is about. When I hear "I updated PHP and everything broke" I think "because libraries break between version upgrades." You seem to be arguing against a position that people aren't taking, which is that there's something inherently wrong with PHP as a language that makes it break when upgraded (which nobody has said).

The same goes for Node, which doesn't break servers just because you upgrade it. I have updated from 12 to 20 with no problems because of the dependencies.

How is this not a complain about the language?

> Again, JS is bad too, but we have to completely rewrite sites due to some PHP framework upgrades because PHP let's people do really dumb ORM templating.

I even quoted this part specifically in my reply:

> because PHP let's people do really dumb ORM templating.

You misunderstand me, I'm saying it has as much to do with PHP as it has to do with JS. Node doesn't break on upgrade because of JS, it breaks because of dependencies that don't work on new versions, as does PHP.